Overall, this was a miss. It was a good idea, but executed poorly because it ignored 

Block weapons are still not worth the effort.

Here is my feedback:

1. Timing. The timing between the different weapon types needs to stay the same. Period. Muscle memory is a real thing and having to adjust timing by a few frames to do the same thing is just foolish. 

2. Gun Strike vs AOE Damage Boost. Parry weapons give two sources of armor for several melee classes - the block and the gun strike. And while the Block AOE damage bonus is great - it is not as consistent (for me) in practice as getting a gun strike on every parry and keeping your armor high. Plus, the damage from the gun strike is pretty good especially if you have an assault with his 50% bonus damage.  The Block AOE Damage boost takes longer to accumulate and is extremely situational in whether I get any benefit from it.

3. Parry AOE. The AOE stagger on parry has three major impacts:

   1. Feedback. The Parry AOE is a great feedback window on when you've hit a perfect parry. It helps you know when you've missed and helps you recover quickly.

   2. Crowd Control**.** The Parry AOE stops follow up attacks and allows you to set the pace of the offense. You can be surrounded and manage the horde - keeping your armor up while also managing the crowd. When using a block weapon - it is nearly impossible to crowd control which is just exacerbates the fact that you have no armor regen.

   3. Follow Up Attacks. This is part of crowd control, but with the Parry AOE - follow up attacks are halted. Giving you a chance to recover, get off the gun strike or reposition. Whereas without it - you block one enemy while two others hit you from another side. The lack of AOE means there is no clean way to go back on offense.

4. Parry Kills. When you perfect parry minoris - they explode. This is a great bonus for the parry weapon. Block is severely limited because without the AOE stagger and the inability to kill the minoris - you end up severely limited on defense and unable to prevent the next attack. Instead, you need to be on the constant offensive - but with the hordes in this game and the inability to really get armor back - it just doesn't work well.

All that said, the largest issue is the lack of an AOE stagger.  It prevents the player from transitioning between offense and defense.  The parry weapon type might be the 'weakest' but when a single parry kills a minoris (or gets a headshot on a majoris) and staggers everyone so that I can go on the offensive - it just exceeds the damage of the block weapon.

My block weapon fixes (or TL;DNR):

• All weapon types have the same parry timing window - but the effects from the perfect parry is different.

• Give the block weapon the largest AOE stagger effect on perfect parry/block so that the player can go back on offense. One of the biggest issues is the inability to transition a block into an attack. This would likely also resolve the 'parry kills' issue since the block player can go back on offense or reposition after a perfect block/parry.

• The Block AOE Damage is a good idea, but rather than have it build up to 3 and then get used in a single attack - my suggestion would be:

  • increase the number of levels to 5; 

  • each level increases the amount of AOE damage and stagger from each attack;

    • the max level of AOE damage is significantly less than the current iteration;

    • each weapon has a different AOE impact radius (swords = small, hammer = large)

    • heavy attacks have a stronger and larger AOE impact radius;

  • levels can decay based on lack of kills, missed attacks, getting hit, etc.

Those changes would allow the Block weapon user to stay on the offensive more by keeping enemies staggered.  

​

BrotherUlfar wrote:

Overall, this was a miss. It was a good idea, but executed poorly because it ignored 

Block weapons are still not worth the effort.

Here is my feedback:

1. Timing. The timing between the different weapon types needs to stay the same. Period. Muscle memory is a real thing and having to adjust timing by a few frames to do the same thing is just foolish. 

2. Gun Strike vs AOE Damage Boost. Parry weapons give two sources of armor for several melee classes - the block and the gun strike. And while the Block AOE damage bonus is great - it is not as consistent (for me) in practice as getting a gun strike on every parry and keeping your armor high. Plus, the damage from the gun strike is pretty good especially if you have an assault with his 50% bonus damage.  The Block AOE Damage boost takes longer to accumulate and is extremely situational in whether I get any benefit from it.

3. Parry AOE. The AOE stagger on parry has three major impacts:

   1. Feedback. The Parry AOE is a great feedback window on when you've hit a perfect parry. It helps you know when you've missed and helps you recover quickly.

   2. Crowd Control**.** The Parry AOE stops follow up attacks and allows you to set the pace of the offense. You can be surrounded and manage the horde - keeping your armor up while also managing the crowd. When using a block weapon - it is nearly impossible to crowd control which is just exacerbates the fact that you have no armor regen.

   3. Follow Up Attacks. This is part of crowd control, but with the Parry AOE - follow up attacks are halted. Giving you a chance to recover, get off the gun strike or reposition. Whereas without it - you block one enemy while two others hit you from another side. The lack of AOE means there is no clean way to go back on offense.

4. Parry Kills. When you perfect parry minoris - they explode. This is a great bonus for the parry weapon. Block is severely limited because without the AOE stagger and the inability to kill the minoris - you end up severely limited on defense and unable to prevent the next attack. Instead, you need to be on the constant offensive - but with the hordes in this game and the inability to really get armor back - it just doesn't work well.

All that said, the largest issue is the lack of an AOE stagger.  It prevents the player from transitioning between offense and defense.  The parry weapon type might be the 'weakest' but when a single parry kills a minoris (or gets a headshot on a majoris) and staggers everyone so that I can go on the offensive - it just exceeds the damage of the block weapon.

My block weapon fixes (or TL;DNR):

• All weapon types have the same parry timing window - but the effects from the perfect parry is different.

• Give the block weapon the largest AOE stagger effect on perfect parry/block so that the player can go back on offense. One of the biggest issues is the inability to transition a block into an attack. This would likely also resolve the 'parry kills' issue since the block player can go back on offense or reposition after a perfect block/parry.

• The Block AOE Damage is a good idea, but rather than have it build up to 3 and then get used in a single attack - my suggestion would be:

  • increase the number of levels to 5; 

  • each level increases the amount of AOE damage and stagger from each attack;

    • the max level of AOE damage is significantly less than the current iteration;

    • each weapon has a different AOE impact radius (swords = small, hammer = large)

    • heavy attacks have a stronger and larger AOE impact radius;

  • levels can decay based on lack of kills, missed attacks, getting hit, etc.

Those changes would allow the Block weapon user to stay on the offensive more by keeping enemies staggered.  

I haven’t had chance to test the block weapons yet. Was going to try bulwark as it has shield bash which is a viable alternative to parrying minoris to get armour back. The other option I’m going to try is a dodge build for assault as the block hammer has good stats and assault has the perfect dodge window benefit. Block weapons now deal 20% more damage in addition to an ‘across the board’ increase in melee damage (according to the devs). We’ll see if it’s viable but I have my doubts.

​

Martinicus wrote:

​

I haven’t had chance to test the block weapons yet. Was going to try bulwark as it has shield bash which is a viable alternative to parrying minoris to get armour back. The other option I’m going to try is a dodge build for assault as the block hammer has good stats and assault has the perfect dodge window benefit. Block weapons now deal 20% more damage in addition to an ‘across the board’ increase in melee damage (according to the devs). We’ll see if it’s viable but I have my doubts.

The perfect dodge build would be awesome - if the "perfect dodge" window wasn't so janky.  And to waste a jet pack usage for a single dodge is just not a good tradeoff.

They also mucked with the parry weapon timing and it feels really awful.

Block weapons kinda fly in the face of one of the assault and bulwark's best perks which is to regain armor with every gun strike. Imo if they could change the aoe stack to also restore armor for every 1 or 2 stacks it might be viable. 

Also, I'm interested to know your thoughts on balance weapons. I haven't had a good look at the new things myself.

​

Koetetsu wrote:

Block weapons kinda fly in the face of one of the assault and bulwark's best perks which is to regain armor with every gun strike. Imo if they could change the aoe stack to also restore armor for every 1 or 2 stacks it might be viable. 

Also, I'm interested to know your thoughts on balance weapons. I haven't had a good look at the new things myself.

I haven't tried them, but I think they have the Perfect Parry Gun Strike and the AOE Stagger.  So probably the right way to go.  I'll go test.

​

BrotherUlfar wrote:

​

Martinicus wrote:

​

I haven’t had chance to test the block weapons yet. Was going to try bulwark as it has shield bash which is a viable alternative to parrying minoris to get armour back. The other option I’m going to try is a dodge build for assault as the block hammer has good stats and assault has the perfect dodge window benefit. Block weapons now deal 20% more damage in addition to an ‘across the board’ increase in melee damage (according to the devs). We’ll see if it’s viable but I have my doubts.

The perfect dodge build would be awesome - if the "perfect dodge" window wasn't so janky.  And to waste a jet pack usage for a single dodge is just not a good tradeoff.

They also mucked with the parry weapon timing and it feels really awful.

I was thinking more about the standard dodge manic, with assaults perfect dodge window class perk. Wondering if the client side changes in the patch notes make a difference. Never seen the jump pack dodge as a viable option. Obviously dodging nullifies the stacking AOE from blocks so the only real benefit is the buffed damage. I’m not sure about the block timing, but would assume they are the same as balanced parry window (same as heavy, but no parry) so if you’re used to fencing (which I am) the timings are different. 

​

Koetetsu wrote:

Block weapons kinda fly in the face of one of the assault and bulwark's best perks which is to regain armor with every gun strike. Imo if they could change the aoe stack to also restore armor for every 1 or 2 stacks it might be viable. 

Also, I'm interested to know your thoughts on balance weapons. I haven't had a good look at the new things myself.

Agreed, especially on tyranid missions. Some of the chaos missions theres much less opportunity to parry, especially against majoris, but I kind of enjoy parrying terminator when they show up. The buffed damage/stagger AOE of a least balanced may be worth it here. Unlikely you’ll chain 3 blocks in chaos missions for AOE.

This is really well said. There's are a lot of issues with block weapons in general and I was going to write a post about it, which is what led me here. They don't seem to understand that nerfing fencing any more at this point is more likely to just break melee and possibly the game entirely. Fencing's knock back could be okay, but everything else needs to be untouched. 

Block is still just bad for numerous reasons. When you block you take a short stagger and gain no breathing room. The block timing feels really janky at best. Combined with the fact that you can't dodge out of attack or parry animations you just take a beating, and it seems like you can't even parry the follow up attacks from the inevitable knock downs. 

I get that they don't want people to space ninja through maps by doing lunge attacks and then dodging out of them before they're done, but there's ways this can be addressed. Very easily. If dodge interrupted dash attack then you can't go into a dash attack from it. It would upset the people who are already using the chainsword to space ninja slower than you could by interrupting the end animation, but it would be worth it. Then the only problem would be the completely unnecessary nerf to dodge in higher difficulties since it already starts out with a smaller window than parry for getting gun strikes. Changing those two things would make block weapons great for terminus that you can melee. 

There's also the elephant in the room. The fist of the forgotten. All of the block weapons gained 7 stats over their fencing counterparts except for the fist. It only gained 1. It literally does less damage than the fencing variant, attacks at about 2/3 of the speed, and has a higher cleave stat. Who even cares about the cleave stat as a priority in the power fist? It has the range of your elbow for some unfathomable reason, no real lunge, and the 6+ fencing variant (the highest speed melee stat of any weapon) is the second slowest weapon in the game with a ridiculously long pause at the end of every chain. When I saw these patch notes I thought the fist might be cool with this. Nope. It really needs to have the exact same speed on all variants, they all need to actually be a little faster to reflect that stat, that anime pause needs to die, and it needs a lunge similar to the power sword. 

The thing to remember with both of these is that there's must always be balance. Players were using fencing weapons and nothing else because they were what offered a balance between offence and defence. In fact they boosted your offence while providing defence. Block was garbage because it offered virtually nothing for taking that away. This is a step in a good direction, but it still doesn't offer balance. It doesn't give you that same synergistic defensive option, and the offensive boost would have to be insane to make up for that. So on the whole I doubt they will be seeing the kind of increased use that was hoped for without something like finally giving in on dodge in melee. 

The power fist has a similar problem. The only real reason it really sees use is as a parry trinket and for cannon punch. It desperately needs some actual reach, and there is no reason for it to not have a decent length lunge, or to be so slow for it's stats - which also need to be fixed.

It should not take 3 perfect blocks to generate a gunstrike. While in the perfect block animation you should be immune to damage (from melee) and any incoming blockable melee strikes should generate charges rather than one perfect block = 1/3 charges. It is possible to chain perfect block like you can with perfect parry but the timing is so much tighter that more often than not you will mess it up and get stunlocked.