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Long Death Timer Is Not "Difficulty"

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11 days ago
Jan 30, 2025, 2:54:26 PM

With this new difficulty mode on the horizon - I just want to state that I do not believe extended death timers is 'added difficulty' but rather an annoyance.  Nobody wants to sit around for extended periods of time doing nothing - and it just makes the missions tedious and boring as opposed to more difficult.


I see people more apt to quit a mission if they die rather than wait for their timer to expire. 


It simply is not a good user experience. 


Find another way to increase difficulty.  Forcing players to not play the game for longer and longer periods of time is not the answer - it's not fun, innovative or interesting to deal with.  


Again, it isn't that I don't want the mode to be more difficult - it's that I don't find this timer to be 'difficult' as opposed to 'boring'.

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10 days ago
Jan 30, 2025, 10:26:07 PM

BrotherUlfar wrote:

With this new difficulty mode on the horizon - I just want to state that I do not believe extended death timers is 'added difficulty' but rather an annoyance.  Nobody wants to sit around for extended periods of time doing nothing - and it just makes the missions tedious and boring as opposed to more difficult.


I see people more apt to quit a mission if they die rather than wait for their timer to expire. 


It simply is not a good user experience. 


Find another way to increase difficulty.  Forcing players to not play the game for longer and longer periods of time is not the answer - it's not fun, innovative or interesting to deal with.  


Again, it isn't that I don't want the mode to be more difficult - it's that I don't find this timer to be 'difficult' as opposed to 'boring'.

​Hello Brother, BrotherUlfar!

 

Brother Nephyrael here, from Focus Support. First of all, we are so happy to see you guys so eager to help us improve the Game and the overall experience for all our battle brothers. We are constantly hearing your feedback, and suggestion for the future of the game. 

 

This suggestion has been forwarded and will be considered for implementation. Keep an eye out for any updates on our official channels!

 

Courage and Honor.

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10 days ago
Jan 31, 2025, 3:47:30 AM

BrotherUlfar wrote:

With this new difficulty mode on the horizon - I just want to state that I do not believe extended death timers is 'added difficulty' but rather an annoyance.  Nobody wants to sit around for extended periods of time doing nothing - and it just makes the missions tedious and boring as opposed to more difficult.


I see people more apt to quit a mission if they die rather than wait for their timer to expire. 


It simply is not a good user experience. 


Find another way to increase difficulty.  Forcing players to not play the game for longer and longer periods of time is not the answer - it's not fun, innovative or interesting to deal with.  


Again, it isn't that I don't want the mode to be more difficult - it's that I don't find this timer to be 'difficult' as opposed to 'boring'.

It doesn't make the missions tedious or boring as you state.  It makes a death very impactful and something to strive not to do.  Plus you get two incapacitations and many opportunities to remove a mortal wound to reset that count.  Besides if your battle brothers are skillful they will kill enemies quickly and you will be back in lethal quicker than ruthless death timer.  I only play lethal and have never seen someone just outright quit because of the timer. They might quit if two team members drop and the last one is up against hopeless odds in their minds. 

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10 days ago
Jan 31, 2025, 7:18:25 AM

BrotherUlfar wrote:

With this new difficulty mode on the horizon - I just want to state that I do not believe extended death timers is 'added difficulty' but rather an annoyance.  Nobody wants to sit around for extended periods of time doing nothing - and it just makes the missions tedious and boring as opposed to more difficult.


I see people more apt to quit a mission if they die rather than wait for their timer to expire. 


It simply is not a good user experience. 


Find another way to increase difficulty.  Forcing players to not play the game for longer and longer periods of time is not the answer - it's not fun, innovative or interesting to deal with.  


Again, it isn't that I don't want the mode to be more difficult - it's that I don't find this timer to be 'difficult' as opposed to 'boring'.

+1 
More respawn time than what we have in Lethal would be just awful.
I just hope new difficulty will have just more enemies. More enemies mean more action, more getting hit(needing more armor and stims), more ammo consumption(forcing us to use our ammo more carefully since it's already limited on Lethal and it will probably be so in Absolute difficulty as well). 

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10 days ago
Jan 31, 2025, 8:47:37 AM

Terindar wrote:

BrotherUlfar wrote:

With this new difficulty mode on the horizon - I just want to state that I do not believe extended death timers is 'added difficulty' but rather an annoyance.  Nobody wants to sit around for extended periods of time doing nothing - and it just makes the missions tedious and boring as opposed to more difficult.


I see people more apt to quit a mission if they die rather than wait for their timer to expire. 


It simply is not a good user experience. 


Find another way to increase difficulty.  Forcing players to not play the game for longer and longer periods of time is not the answer - it's not fun, innovative or interesting to deal with.  


Again, it isn't that I don't want the mode to be more difficult - it's that I don't find this timer to be 'difficult' as opposed to 'boring'.

+1 
More respawn time than what we have in Lethal would be just awful.
I just hope new difficulty will have just more enemies. More enemies mean more action, more getting hit(needing more armor and stims), more ammo consumption(forcing us to use our ammo more carefully since it's already limited on Lethal and it will probably be so in Absolute difficulty as well). 

I can't wait and see if these updated to perks will include a "fix" for the Grenade Launcher "infinite ammo".
Saber did say themselves that the Grenade Launcher was a problem.
And if that happens the game will instantly become much harder for a lot of players by default.

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10 days ago
Jan 31, 2025, 9:33:54 AM

Rexipher wrote:

Terindar wrote:

BrotherUlfar wrote:

With this new difficulty mode on the horizon - I just want to state that I do not believe extended death timers is 'added difficulty' but rather an annoyance.  Nobody wants to sit around for extended periods of time doing nothing - and it just makes the missions tedious and boring as opposed to more difficult.


I see people more apt to quit a mission if they die rather than wait for their timer to expire. 


It simply is not a good user experience. 


Find another way to increase difficulty.  Forcing players to not play the game for longer and longer periods of time is not the answer - it's not fun, innovative or interesting to deal with.  


Again, it isn't that I don't want the mode to be more difficult - it's that I don't find this timer to be 'difficult' as opposed to 'boring'.

+1 
More respawn time than what we have in Lethal would be just awful.
I just hope new difficulty will have just more enemies. More enemies mean more action, more getting hit(needing more armor and stims), more ammo consumption(forcing us to use our ammo more carefully since it's already limited on Lethal and it will probably be so in Absolute difficulty as well). 

I can't wait and see if these updated to perks will include a "fix" for the Grenade Launcher "infinite ammo".
Saber did say themselves that the Grenade Launcher was a problem.
And if that happens the game will instantly become much harder for a lot of players by default.

I mean the weapon is like a different weapon because of it, rather than simply being a variant. I just hope they add some stagger to bolt weapons and increase the damage(and/or headshot multiplier) so that they can be fun and viable on high difficulties. If that happens, I guess they can reduce the grenade numbers of the launcher variant so that it would be like giving you a couple extra grenades in exchange of the advantages of other variants or something.

Updated 10 days ago.
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10 days ago
Jan 31, 2025, 1:03:39 PM

Rexipher wrote:

Terindar wrote:

BrotherUlfar wrote:

With this new difficulty mode on the horizon - I just want to state that I do not believe extended death timers is 'added difficulty' but rather an annoyance.  Nobody wants to sit around for extended periods of time doing nothing - and it just makes the missions tedious and boring as opposed to more difficult.


I see people more apt to quit a mission if they die rather than wait for their timer to expire. 


It simply is not a good user experience. 


Find another way to increase difficulty.  Forcing players to not play the game for longer and longer periods of time is not the answer - it's not fun, innovative or interesting to deal with.  


Again, it isn't that I don't want the mode to be more difficult - it's that I don't find this timer to be 'difficult' as opposed to 'boring'.

+1 
More respawn time than what we have in Lethal would be just awful.
I just hope new difficulty will have just more enemies. More enemies mean more action, more getting hit(needing more armor and stims), more ammo consumption(forcing us to use our ammo more carefully since it's already limited on Lethal and it will probably be so in Absolute difficulty as well). 

I can't wait and see if these updated to perks will include a "fix" for the Grenade Launcher "infinite ammo".
Saber did say themselves that the Grenade Launcher was a problem.
And if that happens the game will instantly become much harder for a lot of players by default.


Hello Brother!

Thanks for your bug report, we are working to fix this as soon as possible!

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10 days ago
Jan 31, 2025, 1:53:31 PM

BrotherUlfar wrote:

With this new difficulty mode on the horizon - I just want to state that I do not believe extended death timers is 'added difficulty' but rather an annoyance.  Nobody wants to sit around for extended periods of time doing nothing - and it just makes the missions tedious and boring as opposed to more difficult.


I see people more apt to quit a mission if they die rather than wait for their timer to expire. 


It simply is not a good user experience. 


Find another way to increase difficulty.  Forcing players to not play the game for longer and longer periods of time is not the answer - it's not fun, innovative or interesting to deal with.  


Again, it isn't that I don't want the mode to be more difficult - it's that I don't find this timer to be 'difficult' as opposed to 'boring'.

Agreed. We're here to play SM2 not sit around WAITING to play SM2. This artificial difficulty is not fun nor creative. It only encourages players to leave as soon as they die.

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10 days ago
Jan 31, 2025, 2:36:17 PM

Blobie wrote:

It doesn't make the missions tedious or boring as you state.  It makes a death very impactful and something to strive not to do.  Plus you get two incapacitations and many opportunities to remove a mortal wound to reset that count.  Besides if your battle brothers are skillful they will kill enemies quickly and you will be back in lethal quicker than ruthless death timer.  I only play lethal and have never seen someone just outright quit because of the timer. They might quit if two team members drop and the last one is up against hopeless odds in their minds. 

I'm glad that it does that for you, but it has no such impact for me.  It just makes it boring.  And last I checked - nobody is 'striving to die' in the other game modes. 


I'm also glad you have never seen someone outright quit because of the timer - and am even more impressed with your ability to know why they quit.  However, I have seen plenty of people quit the moment they die - and a good percentage of the time they join right back in ... and it was quicker than their timer ever would have been.


Find a different way to make 'death feel impactful'.  Having players have to sit around for extended periods is not it.  I didn't pay for a game so I could sit around and not play.

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9 days ago
Feb 1, 2025, 6:19:36 AM

BrotherUlfar wrote:

Blobie wrote:

It doesn't make the missions tedious or boring as you state.  It makes a death very impactful and something to strive not to do.  Plus you get two incapacitations and many opportunities to remove a mortal wound to reset that count.  Besides if your battle brothers are skillful they will kill enemies quickly and you will be back in lethal quicker than ruthless death timer.  I only play lethal and have never seen someone just outright quit because of the timer. They might quit if two team members drop and the last one is up against hopeless odds in their minds. 

I'm glad that it does that for you, but it has no such impact for me.  It just makes it boring.  And last I checked - nobody is 'striving to die' in the other game modes. 


I'm also glad you have never seen someone outright quit because of the timer - and am even more impressed with your ability to know why they quit.  However, I have seen plenty of people quit the moment they die - and a good percentage of the time they join right back in ... and it was quicker than their timer ever would have been.


Find a different way to make 'death feel impactful'.  Having players have to sit around for extended periods is not it.  I didn't pay for a game so I could sit around and not play.

I would like to see no downs (instant death if you go down, if you have a guardian relic you still go down as normal and can get back up) but 1 minute timer reduced by killing. That makes death more impactful and also doesn't have those players out for too long. Have terminis threat kills instantly bring back any currently dead players and extremis threat kills remove 30 seconds. Potentially have a boon system in place where if the player that dies had previously been killing a lot of enemies they get a slightly shorter timer. (like say you get one second off per majoris you killed before death to a minimum timer of 30 seconds) To offset the speed of coming back you spawn in with attrition, meaning your max health and/or reserve ammunition is reduced, this is where the real impact of death is it is now "easier" to die because you don't have a "down" safety-net and if you die your resources will be depleted (cap the attrition to 50% or something) have stims restore some attrition health so if players stop dying/taking excessive damage they can undo the "punishment."


I agree that longer death timers does not equate to more difficulty/more impactful death, it equates no fun allowed to the people unfortunate enough to die.

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7 days ago
Feb 3, 2025, 2:51:51 PM

Shining_Darkness wrote:

I would like to see no downs (instant death if you go down, if you have a guardian relic you still go down as normal and can get back up) but 1 minute timer reduced by killing. That makes death more impactful and also doesn't have those players out for too long. Have terminis threat kills instantly bring back any currently dead players and extremis threat kills remove 30 seconds. Potentially have a boon system in place where if the player that dies had previously been killing a lot of enemies they get a slightly shorter timer. (like say you get one second off per majoris you killed before death to a minimum timer of 30 seconds) To offset the speed of coming back you spawn in with attrition, meaning your max health and/or reserve ammunition is reduced, this is where the real impact of death is it is now "easier" to die because you don't have a "down" safety-net and if you die your resources will be depleted (cap the attrition to 50% or something) have stims restore some attrition health so if players stop dying/taking excessive damage they can undo the "punishment."


I agree that longer death timers does not equate to more difficulty/more impactful death, it equates no fun allowed to the people unfortunate enough to die.

I would love this.  A perfect example of trying to make death matter and impact the team while also keeping the action going. 

Heck, even if they made it 90s with all those ways to reduce the timer.  But sitting there for 3-5 minutes is brutal. 

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7 days ago
Feb 3, 2025, 4:39:15 PM

BrotherUlfar wrote:

Shining_Darkness wrote:

I would like to see no downs (instant death if you go down, if you have a guardian relic you still go down as normal and can get back up) but 1 minute timer reduced by killing. That makes death more impactful and also doesn't have those players out for too long. Have terminis threat kills instantly bring back any currently dead players and extremis threat kills remove 30 seconds. Potentially have a boon system in place where if the player that dies had previously been killing a lot of enemies they get a slightly shorter timer. (like say you get one second off per majoris you killed before death to a minimum timer of 30 seconds) To offset the speed of coming back you spawn in with attrition, meaning your max health and/or reserve ammunition is reduced, this is where the real impact of death is it is now "easier" to die because you don't have a "down" safety-net and if you die your resources will be depleted (cap the attrition to 50% or something) have stims restore some attrition health so if players stop dying/taking excessive damage they can undo the "punishment."


I agree that longer death timers does not equate to more difficulty/more impactful death, it equates no fun allowed to the people unfortunate enough to die.

I would love this.  A perfect example of trying to make death matter and impact the team while also keeping the action going. 

Heck, even if they made it 90s with all those ways to reduce the timer.  But sitting there for 3-5 minutes is brutal. 

For sure. I was more speculating that even lower difficulty would benefit from it if the timer were reasonable enough. Just increase the base time per difficulty with the knowledge that as long as you do well and at least one person is alive it will only take 30 seconds at most assuming you have not constantly been going down.
Have the standard 2+ mortal wound for minimal then give average 1+ mortal wound like all the current substantial+ difficulties. Substantial then has a 60 second timer able to be cut down to 30 within a couple rooms, Ruthless add 30 seconds to the base, Lethal introduce attrition HP capped at 50%, this new difficulty would have attrition cap lowered to 25% and also introduce ammo reserve attrition. It is an easy way to make death more and more meaningful while not making players ever have to wait more than 90seconds.

Removing the ability to go down (other than with a relic) really doesn't change anything for Lethal since really if you go down the fight is probably not going well and the other two probably won't be able to find a moment to revive you, thus only snipers and bulwarks with the res banner typically are able to revive in bad situations so really dyeing and getting it over with means you get to play faster rather than linger for 15 seconds or whatever the down timer is.

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6 days ago
Feb 4, 2025, 2:59:01 PM
Shining_Darkness wrote:

For sure. I was more speculating that even lower difficulty would benefit from it if the timer were reasonable enough. Just increase the base time per difficulty with the knowledge that as long as you do well and at least one person is alive it will only take 30 seconds at most assuming you have not constantly been going down.
Have the standard 2+ mortal wound for minimal then give average 1+ mortal wound like all the current substantial+ difficulties. Substantial then has a 60 second timer able to be cut down to 30 within a couple rooms, Ruthless add 30 seconds to the base, Lethal introduce attrition HP capped at 50%, this new difficulty would have attrition cap lowered to 25% and also introduce ammo reserve attrition. It is an easy way to make death more and more meaningful while not making players ever have to wait more than 90seconds.

Removing the ability to go down (other than with a relic) really doesn't change anything for Lethal since really if you go down the fight is probably not going well and the other two probably won't be able to find a moment to revive you, thus only snipers and bulwarks with the res banner typically are able to revive in bad situations so really dyeing and getting it over with means you get to play faster rather than linger for 15 seconds or whatever the down timer is.

Yup.  And what's terrible is that you thought that up quickly - yet whenever I've mentioned the timer on Reddit or anywhere else ... I get the standard "don't die", "git gud", "the wait is important since it makes death important" knee jerk reactions ...
When everyone truly knows a 5 minute timer is absurd.

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6 days ago
Feb 4, 2025, 4:56:23 PM

BrotherUlfar wrote:
Shining_Darkness wrote:

For sure. I was more speculating that even lower difficulty would benefit from it if the timer were reasonable enough. Just increase the base time per difficulty with the knowledge that as long as you do well and at least one person is alive it will only take 30 seconds at most assuming you have not constantly been going down.
Have the standard 2+ mortal wound for minimal then give average 1+ mortal wound like all the current substantial+ difficulties. Substantial then has a 60 second timer able to be cut down to 30 within a couple rooms, Ruthless add 30 seconds to the base, Lethal introduce attrition HP capped at 50%, this new difficulty would have attrition cap lowered to 25% and also introduce ammo reserve attrition. It is an easy way to make death more and more meaningful while not making players ever have to wait more than 90seconds.

Removing the ability to go down (other than with a relic) really doesn't change anything for Lethal since really if you go down the fight is probably not going well and the other two probably won't be able to find a moment to revive you, thus only snipers and bulwarks with the res banner typically are able to revive in bad situations so really dyeing and getting it over with means you get to play faster rather than linger for 15 seconds or whatever the down timer is.

Yup.  And what's terrible is that you thought that up quickly - yet whenever I've mentioned the timer on Reddit or anywhere else ... I get the standard "don't die", "git gud", "the wait is important since it makes death important" knee jerk reactions ...
When everyone truly knows a 5 minute timer is absurd.

Oh I am just full of ideas and even compromises for those ideas to facilitate ease of implementation. If I had the time, I would learn how to do game development but I enjoy my current job too much.

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5 days ago
Feb 5, 2025, 12:23:14 AM

BrotherUlfar wrote:

Yup.  And what's terrible is that you thought that up quickly - yet whenever I've mentioned the timer on Reddit or anywhere else ... I get the standard "don't die", "git gud", "the wait is important since it makes death important" knee jerk reactions ...
When everyone truly knows a 5 minute timer is absurd.

Well because to a lot of people that's actually true. They don't see it as an impediment because they can actively reduce the timer so quickly.  Someone goes down on lethal. So it's base 5 min. 3 majoris kills and 1 min taken off.  How quickly can two space marines kill 3 majoris. Those long lethal death timers most typically end up being quicker than Substantial or Ruthless.  It's a harsher penalty, but gives the players the agency. It's up to them to make it as quick or as long as it needs to be.


I do agree though a set in stone longer death timer with no way to reduce it would not be a good idea.

Updated 5 days ago.
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5 days ago
Feb 5, 2025, 2:37:44 PM

Blobie wrote:

Well because to a lot of people that's actually true. They don't see it as an impediment because they can actively reduce the timer so quickly.  Someone goes down on lethal. So it's base 5 min. 3 majoris kills and 1 min taken off.  How quickly can two space marines kill 3 majoris. Those long lethal death timers most typically end up being quicker than Substantial or Ruthless.  It's a harsher penalty, but gives the players the agency. It's up to them to make it as quick or as long as it needs to be.


I do agree though a set in stone longer death timer with no way to reduce it would not be a good idea.

Except forcing a player to sit out for 3-5 minutes is a bad user experience.  It's nice that there are some in the community that play with a crew that reduce that timer - but there are far more that play in random groups and it's just damn painful to sit there doing nothing for what is surely going to be more than 3 minutes. 


Look at the suggestion above - it's far more 'harsh' but also far more fun and interactive.  It's punishing, but it keeps you playing the game. 


Honestly, I feel like anyone supporting this death timer is either a shill for Saber or just trying to play a different version of the 'git gud' game.  I just cannot, honestly, believe there is anyone that believes this is a good, well thought out game mechanic that the majority of players enjoy.  And that's the key - the majority of players.

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5 days ago
Feb 5, 2025, 4:20:01 PM

BrotherUlfar wrote:

Except forcing a player to sit out for 3-5 minutes is a bad user experience.  It's nice that there are some in the community that play with a crew that reduce that timer - but there are far more that play in random groups and it's just damn painful to sit there doing nothing for what is surely going to be more than 3 minutes. 


Look at the suggestion above - it's far more 'harsh' but also far more fun and interactive.  It's punishing, but it keeps you playing the game. 


Honestly, I feel like anyone supporting this death timer is either a shill for Saber or just trying to play a different version of the 'git gud' game.  I just cannot, honestly, believe there is anyone that believes this is a good, well thought out game mechanic that the majority of players enjoy.  And that's the key - the majority of players.

I only play on quickplay with randoms on lethal and no voicechat.  I wouldn't want hp or ammo attrition in any form. I don't mind the timer and based off of your previous comments about the responses you received by everyone on reddit or anywhere else it would appear the masses don't mind it either.  It might be a mechanic you don't enjoy, but are stuck with since most people don't mind it.


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5 days ago
Feb 5, 2025, 6:08:23 PM

Blobie wrote:

I only play on quickplay with randoms on lethal and no voicechat.  I wouldn't want hp or ammo attrition in any form. I don't mind the timer and based off of your previous comments about the responses you received by everyone on reddit or anywhere else it would appear the masses don't mind it either.  It might be a mechanic you don't enjoy, but are stuck with since most people don't mind it.


1. Assuming Reddit represents the average person is a mistake. 

2. The majority of people were AGAINST long death timers - it was the minority that were rabidly for it.  Strangely enough they coincided perfectly with the 'git gud' crowd that defends everything Saber and everything absurd.  Don't like a Zoan shooting through a wall?  'Git gud'.  Don't like long death timers? 'Don die. Git gud.'

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4 days ago
Feb 6, 2025, 5:08:43 AM

BrotherUlfar wrote:

Blobie wrote:

I only play on quickplay with randoms on lethal and no voicechat.  I wouldn't want hp or ammo attrition in any form. I don't mind the timer and based off of your previous comments about the responses you received by everyone on reddit or anywhere else it would appear the masses don't mind it either.  It might be a mechanic you don't enjoy, but are stuck with since most people don't mind it.


1. Assuming Reddit represents the average person is a mistake. 

2. The majority of people were AGAINST long death timers - it was the minority that were rabidly for it.  Strangely enough they coincided perfectly with the 'git gud' crowd that defends everything Saber and everything absurd.  Don't like a Zoan shooting through a wall?  'Git gud'.  Don't like long death timers? 'Don die. Git gud.'

+1

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4 days ago
Feb 6, 2025, 3:55:47 PM

BrotherUlfar wrote:

Blobie wrote:

I only play on quickplay with randoms on lethal and no voicechat.  I wouldn't want hp or ammo attrition in any form. I don't mind the timer and based off of your previous comments about the responses you received by everyone on reddit or anywhere else it would appear the masses don't mind it either.  It might be a mechanic you don't enjoy, but are stuck with since most people don't mind it.


1. Assuming Reddit represents the average person is a mistake. 

2. The majority of people were AGAINST long death timers - it was the minority that were rabidly for it.  Strangely enough they coincided perfectly with the 'git gud' crowd that defends everything Saber and everything absurd.  Don't like a Zoan shooting through a wall?  'Git gud'.  Don't like long death timers? 'Don die. Git gud.'

I never once posted on reddit before and don't mind the death timer so as far as your assumption that the majority of people are against it is also just an assumption.  All we have to go on is your own statement that said when you mentioned it everyone liked the death timer.  Just because they like it and you don't doesn't mean those people are defending saber.  It might just mean they actually do like the death timer as it is.

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