​​First of all, yes, it is very obvious that PvP is a side mode, this is clearly visible by the presence of only three maps and three modes (two of which are almost identical to each other). And it is also obvious that PvP mode will be given less attention. However, I dare say that this gamemode has found its player base, it has its own interest and variety even with the current limited content. However, I am more than sure that it will lose a lot of players if changes for PvP do not happen sooner rather than later. In patch 3.0, PvE received a lot of changes, while for PvP the patch was literally the worst that could have happened. But let's start with

Shock grenades

If you play against a fairly experienced team, then be prepared that a quarter of the time you will be looking at a beautiful snow-white image on your monitor. 

I do not know how, why these grenades received such effects and how it passed testing. But we have
- Grenade with damage and area denial effect
- Sticky grenade with damage
- Grenade mine with BIG damage
- Grenade that applies area denial for a long period of time, deals less damage, instantly blinds the enemy for a second, deals damage in an area, does not allow you to move the sight. 

4 EFFECTS IN ONE GRENADE. At the same time, its incredibly effects that are almost guaranteed to lead to your death one way or another and do not require special skill or timing to use. Pure "press F to kill" or get HUGE advantage. And what's even more annoying is that you have no counterplay for it. 
Did someone throw a usual grenade at you? You have time to react. 
Did the enemy play well and manage to attach a frag grenade to you? Jump into their arms and take them to Valhalla with you. 
Did the enemy throw a melta bomb? You have time to escape or kill them. 
Did someone throw a shock grenade at you? You can cry about it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Bulwark

Another problematic element and the main star of this thread is bulwark. An entire class whose privileges defy any explanation other than "we took what works in PvE and throwed it into PvP without changes." 
Ability to block any amount of any damage in front of you (and even a little to the side) at the cost of a movement speed penalty is just downright unhealthy for the game. And this even applies to blocking all attacks in melee (except heavy). That is, you literally have one method to fight this class. And with this method, you must give up all your advantages, get to a distance where this class is strong and attack with special heavy attacks that take much longer to execute. And all this is not to gain an advantage, not to reveal the potential of your class or an interesting combo, but in order to SIMPLY DEAL AT LEAST SOME DAMAGE. As if this wasn't absurd enough, even if the entire enemy team is shooting at Bulwark, but he's standing behind a shield and not taking damage, he'll regenerate his armor and health, since the game thinks that the character isn't taking damage and it's time to turn on regeneration. And if that's not enough for you, this class also has the only healing in the game (or rather armor regeneration, but the gist is the same) in AoE, which is not interrupted and doesn't stop working even if the target's armor has already reached its maximum which simply win button for any teamfigh. It just sounds absurd, it shouldn't work like that and shouldn't be in the game like that.

Patch 3.0 made everything worse

But remember, some classes are better at dealing with certain other classes? Tactical can track an invisible sniper, Heavy can be hurt by a close Assault, and so on. Really, we can't do anything to counter Bulwark's defense? That's right, Vanguard's stun allows you to knock down the shield and destroy Bulwark!

Oh... Never mind
Yes, I understand that getting stunned by Vanguard was exactly as boring a gameplay element as Bulwark's defense, but you can't change such related elements without affecting both aspects. After 3.0 Patch, the game unfortunately doesn't have a class that could help a team deal with Bulwark. Do you know what else was changed in 3.0? The damage of a charged Powerfist was significantly increased and it is now guaranteed to kill an enemy with one charged strike. Great news for the Assault class, although it doesn't have enough durability to use the weapon's charged strike. 
Wait. DOES BULWARK HAVE A POWERFIST TOO?!
That's right. 
If all other conditions were met and you came to fight Bulwark at close range with your slow Heavy strikes, be prepared for a one-shot in response. And yes, Bulwark has more than enough durability to use this weapon in this way.

Another thing that patch 3.0 brought is a changed spawn system that now swaps teams spawn points more aggressively, which leads to crazy chaos if both teams are at spawn points. Because both teams are actually present at spawn points, the game will swap them over and over, leading to the fact that on both sides, 2-3 space marines that have spawned will be fighting against superior enemy forces at spawn over and over again. In my opinion, this decision has only brought more chaos to multiplayer and only increased spawnkill situations. I still think that the problem will not be solved this way and the game needs spawn protection or something like that. 

That's all, I think. I could say that Heavy is problematic, as are Snipers in some ways, but both of those classes with their problems don't even reach half the level of problematic that Bulwark currently has. I'd love to hear your opinions!

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Cro0ly wrote:

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Zaphiel wrote:

TLDR: the match almost entirely consists of a series of spawn point changes and spawnkill attempts by both teams as a result. I don't remember this being such a big problem even before patch 3.0. And this problem is especially acute in the Annihilation mode, where I really don't remember a single match in recent times where this didn't happen for at least a short period of time.

Oh, and I almost forgot

New rally point established

This is what I have been saying for days now - Spawn killing became a regular and effective tactics, especially in Cathedrum and Bastion. Shame to admit but I do the same...cos everybody is doing it. When my pack is running towards the spawn point I just follow them. The spawning system definitely needs a rework ASAP.

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Bladerunner777 wrote:

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Cro0ly wrote:

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Zaphiel wrote:

TLDR: the match almost entirely consists of a series of spawn point changes and spawnkill attempts by both teams as a result. I don't remember this being such a big problem even before patch 3.0. And this problem is especially acute in the Annihilation mode, where I really don't remember a single match in recent times where this didn't happen for at least a short period of time.

Oh, and I almost forgot

New rally point established

This is what I have been saying for days now - Spawn killing became a regular and effective tactics, especially in Cathedrum and Bastion. Shame to admit but I do the same...cos everybody is doing it. When my pack is running towards the spawn point I just follow them. The spawning system definitely needs a rework ASAP.

Even tho I totally agree with the both of you I think the spawn issue is just one of many problems of PvP and perhaps even on the lower end of the list of issues.

Just to list a few problems:
- no long term reason to play PvP
- missing ranked system
- unbalanced lobbies
- too few game modes (while 2 of the existing are almost the same)
- class restrictions and the frustrations coming with it (no pre game choice to get what the players desire)
- melee being super weak, if not using it from an advantages position
- bulwark
and a few more.

I think most of those problems can be fixed rather easily as many people already suggested a lot of good ideas.

Personally I would like to see the implementation of a ranked system with a proper way to track long time/season play including placements, kills, assists, damage, etc.
For the other points I would suggest pushing the game more into an Overwatch2 direction which would allow for more game modes, games that last a little longer and are possibly more interesting while spawns would be protected (for the existing maps changes would be needed). This game mode/style should be 5v5 with class restrictions to 1 which would allow to keep the class system with their unique abilities (which could become a problem to balance) while making it easier to implement an apothecary, chaplain and or librarian later down the road. Could argue about removing the health regeneration and implementing stim packs to make including an apothecary more significant (also increasing the skill cap as deciding how and when to engage becomes far more important). All that and a few changes to melee + the bulwark shield (making it have a durability that can be shot down and even broken like reinharts shield from OW2) would really up the game. 

Could definitely argue to go in a different direction that doesn't include the unlimited respawn game style, but I think sticking to it is totally fine.

Well here I come with my unpopular opinion! 

Bulwark and Shock grenade are fine. 

I use Shock on very few classes, my preferred are krakk and melta. 

Bulwark has a lot of utility for a team, it creates a team game that can't really be replicated without him. He holds the team in an actual unit rather than drifting around aimlessly. 

They're not my favorite class, but I do always hope for a decent one. 

There is enough counter play that it's not a problem. Krakk, Vanguard, Assault, other bulwark.

Loads of fps have invincible shields now, and those games are closer to this one than Overwatch. Starting way back in CoD with the riot shields. I wouldn't HATE them letting melta do damage through the shield, but let's remember Storm Shield have an INVUL save. They're made out of the strong stuff. 

Now specifically shock grenades... They don't do a lot of damage, they do just enough to discourage walking through it, they're the kings of position control, but they can't really kill that's not what they're for... I know the carbine wielders or warks or whatever try to Zerg blind you, but as a rule of thumb if someone throws a grenade you can and should dodge. 

Now melta, I've addressed this a lot, but it melta received any buffs it would be broken, imo. It's too easy to just get into melee and annihilate as is with the Multimelta. You'll probably die, but not before you kill several enemies. High Risk High Reward. Should not be low risk low reward. 

Shock is probably more relevant in the Annihilation and Seize Ground game modes where you don't continue fighting over the same objective for longer periods of time. Frag has far more value, and it shows by more experienced players, certainly does in Capture and Control. That isn't to say Shock doesn't need an adjustment, the Blind needs to be reduced to a momentary flash only.

Bulwark wasn't an issue when Vanguard was functional, but it is also less of a problem the more experienced players become, because Krak drops their shield so you can shoot them dead, and Melta deletes them, and they cannot hold a point on their own. Assault also deletes Bulwarks, with very low risk.

Melta weapons are largely overrated, and largely irrelevant, wait until we have more players with the Plasma weapons however, surprised there haven't already been cries from the few with access to them.

Melee doesn't need changes, Assaults were already buffed in the last update, and their Mario gameplay demolishes most teams, stomp stomp to victory. And the powerfist is hilariously broken now.

What we need is Skill Based Match Making before lobbies are formed, and we need team shuffling, and we need better servers/netcode, as it stands right now this is Battlefield 4 release levels of bad desync.

https://community.focus-entmt.com/focus-entertainment/space-marine-2/forums/6-general/threads/44114-pvp-feedback-and-suggestions

Everything isn't broken... 

The only weapon I think personally under performs is the Bolt Marksman, which gains spread faster than the bolt pistol. 

That's the only weapon as of right now that has even a little balancing issue in my opinion. 

Everything else has it's place. 

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MrsHeadshott wrote:

Everything isn't broken... 

The only weapon I think personally under performs is the Bolt Marksman, which gains spread faster than the bolt pistol. 

That's the only weapon as of right now that has even a little balancing issue in my opinion. 

Everything else has it's place. 

No, no, no, brother you are so wrong. I dunno about this bolt gun you speak of because I never used it, but I do know about multi melta in pvp - and it sucks. Yes, I know what you're going to say - you can kill with this weapon, especially level 1 players who have no idea what's going on around them. True, the same goes about the combat knife but that's not the point. Multi melta in pvp works more like a melee weapon rather than the ranged one - and this is wrong, it's not a melee weapon. The range is way too short, that is why nobody is using it in pvp and if something is avoided it means there is definitely something wrong with that and you cannot deny this fact.

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Bladerunner777 wrote:

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MrsHeadshott wrote:

Everything isn't broken... 

The only weapon I think personally under performs is the Bolt Marksman, which gains spread faster than the bolt pistol. 

That's the only weapon as of right now that has even a little balancing issue in my opinion. 

Everything else has it's place. 

No, no, no, brother you are so wrong. I dunno about this bolt gun you speak of because I never used it, but I do know about multi melta in pvp - and it sucks. Yes, I know what you're going to say - you can kill with this weapon, especially level 1 players who have no idea what's going on around them. True, the same goes about the combat knife but that's not the point. Multi melta in pvp works more like a melee weapon rather than the ranged one - and this is wrong, it's not a melee weapon. The range is way too short, that is why nobody is using it in pvp and if something is avoided it means there is definitely something wrong with that and you cannot deny this fact.

​Meltagun is a hard one. One wrong decision and it can easily become too effective.

I think it's an all-or-nothing weapon from the start. Its range isn't that short, but as far as I can see, mechanically it's literally a shotgun with a spread (and a limited range) and it literally one-shots, but only if you're really close to the enemy, so close that their armor literally touches the barrel of the gun. I don't think it needs to be increased in range, but its spread should be decreased, so that the weapon remains dangerous, but retains its specificity

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I'm not saying it's magic. I've seen a handful of people use it.  It's about positioning and using your team and abilities to get close. 

50m? That would put it at optimum tax range. Every gun in this game has about a third as much range as you would think it would, so it's right in line with everything else. 

The two furthest points you can shoot at each other from as any class is Catherine antechambers just off the spawn. 

Everything range wise is shortened. 50m is halfway across the map. A free one two that fires in half the time as the bolt sniper on a class with much more defense. It just doesn't make sense. 

It'll kill anyone in it's effective range faster than they can kill you, notably an unprepared power fist will die before it can charge and kill you. 

That's impressive. 

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Bladerunner777 wrote:

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Cro0ly wrote:

​

Bladerunner777 wrote:

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MrsHeadshott wrote:

Everything isn't broken... 

The only weapon I think personally under performs is the Bolt Marksman, which gains spread faster than the bolt pistol. 

That's the only weapon as of right now that has even a little balancing issue in my opinion. 

Everything else has it's place. 

No, no, no, brother you are so wrong. I dunno about this bolt gun you speak of because I never used it, but I do know about multi melta in pvp - and it sucks. Yes, I know what you're going to say - you can kill with this weapon, especially level 1 players who have no idea what's going on around them. True, the same goes about the combat knife but that's not the point. Multi melta in pvp works more like a melee weapon rather than the ranged one - and this is wrong, it's not a melee weapon. The range is way too short, that is why nobody is using it in pvp and if something is avoided it means there is definitely something wrong with that and you cannot deny this fact.

​Meltagun is a hard one. One wrong decision and it can easily become too effective.

I think it's an all-or-nothing weapon from the start. Its range isn't that short, but as far as I can see, mechanically it's literally a shotgun with a spread (and a limited range) and it literally one-shots, but only if you're really close to the enemy, so close that their armor literally touches the barrel of the gun. I don't think it needs to be increased in range, but its spread should be decreased, so that the weapon remains dangerous, but retains its specificity

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Ok, so pls answer my question from the previous post - how many players using multi melta in pvp have you seen this week ? And what does it tell you ?

I saw two different heavies with multimelta today  which is kinda decent for such weapon.

After that, I tried playing heavy with a multi-melta myself and it didn't feel so bad (the situation with Tactial is a bit harder tho). Also, when we talk about weapons of this type, you should always remember that very often the players' choice of weapon is based on what they have unlocked at the moment. How many Heavy players use plasma? Quite a few, although if you've seen how it works now after 3.0 - it really is one of the most broken OP weapons in the game, but it unlocks at level 23 and thats it.

P.S. While writing this message, I decided to try out the multi-melta, just to make sure of my opinion. And yes, it's okay. Not perfect, but not bad. We lost because half of our team were completely inexperienced players, while we were forced to face a more experienced team as a whole. But as you can see from the K/D/A, the weapon is okay. Yes, you need to understand when it's better to use a melta, and when a bolt pistol, you need to know the timing of exiting a heavy stance after a shot, etc. but that's okay, it's a completely normal learning curve. Again, I don't mind a small buff to this weapon, but you have to be very careful with it.