Highly disagree with this. Even the standard bolt pistol one taps minoris to the head (two taps for Chaos) and being able to consistently headshot a squad of shooters is one of the metrics for improving at the game. Enemies have quite large head hitboxes and guns are very easy to control. You should always aim for the head, and don't need to be rewarded with quick kills for missing. If you're consistently tapping heads, most guns have pretty solid TTKs. Missing the odd shot isn't the end of the world, you don't need 100% accuracy.

I would say bolters have their place as wave clearers, especially if your shooting the enemies that come from the massive waves like at the end of Inferno. One bolt shot from any bolter will kill a minoris so long as they are still on there way to climb up the wall. If your using an automatic bolter you can clear a substantial amount of enemies to lighten the load that make it up the walls. Yes headshot are probably the only consistent way to clear hoards once they are on you but that's what makes the game challenging. I will say that the stagger on minoris enemies is a little extreme and makes it hard to line up a headshot when they are flopping around like a fish. My only gripe is the fact that majoris enemies never stagger from headshots, not even consecutive headshots. This makes it very frustrating when your trying to kill one and they just continue firing at you like your squirting a water gun in their face...

600% extra damege for head shot are way to much.

100% - 200% will be way more fair and eysier to balance

Go away dude... this whole, lets keep nerfing the game is just bull. People like you ruin games.

The headshot damage is fine, but the gap between headshot damage and everything else damage is definitely too big. Don't fix that by nerfing headshot damage, fix it by increasing damage to everything else. It should not take 6-8 rounds from a relic bolt rifle to bring down a gaunt. It makes no sense on any difficulty and violates the lore to an egregious extent.

​If I understand correctly, I agree with the general idea, but I am opposed to nerfing our classes or weapons.

The problem is not that some techniques or weapons are effective, but rather that many weapons are not up to par with what they should be, especially when enemies become artificially more resistant over the three main difficulty levels (excluding the first and last). Enemy behavior and resistance should be standardized, regardless of difficulty level.

This forum post offers a very interesting approach to improve this aspect.

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Volken_Rainer wrote:

​If I understand correctly, I agree with the general idea, but I am opposed to nerfing our classes or weapons.

The problem is not that some techniques or weapons are effective, but rather that many weapons are not up to par with what they should be, especially when enemies become artificially more resistant over the three main difficulty levels (excluding the first and last). Enemy behavior and resistance should be standardized, regardless of difficulty level.

This forum post offers a very interesting approach to improve this aspect.

I agree on this actually: IMHO difficulty modes should offer improvements in stuff like enemy numbers and composition along with AI aggression. Just raising enemy HP and damage resistance to turn them into bullet sponges is the laziest way to do increased difficulty, and often leads to issues like weapons feeling impotent because enemies have so much health that the weapons don't deal much damage. Weapon upgrades should feel like an improvement to your weapon that makes it easier to tackle hard content, yet currently it often feels like weapon upgrades are the mandatory requirement for tackling harder difficulties, and even then enemies often out-scale Relic weapon damage to the point that said weapons don't feel nearly as powerful as they should.  

I get the impression that prole are thinking this is a nerf headshot damage and be done with it post. It clearly isn't. One shotting a minoris to the head is a good baseline. Nerf the headshot multiplier and buff baseline damage until it takes maybe three or four shots to the body to kill the same minoris instead of six while STILL ONE SHOTTING TO THE HEAD.

Lower body shot count to kill, same head shot count. Make sense? It's a good idea with the amount of recoil they put on most of the guns. Anything that can move an eight to nine for two genetically engineered ogre like that is going to blow things to bits instead of tickle it to death. 

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LGear wrote:

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Volken_Rainer wrote:

​If I understand correctly, I agree with the general idea, but I am opposed to nerfing our classes or weapons.

The problem is not that some techniques or weapons are effective, but rather that many weapons are not up to par with what they should be, especially when enemies become artificially more resistant over the three main difficulty levels (excluding the first and last). Enemy behavior and resistance should be standardized, regardless of difficulty level.

This forum post offers a very interesting approach to improve this aspect.

I agree on this actually: IMHO difficulty modes should offer improvements in stuff like enemy numbers and composition along with AI aggression. Just raising enemy HP and damage resistance to turn them into bullet sponges is the laziest way to do increased difficulty, and often leads to issues like weapons feeling impotent because enemies have so much health that the weapons don't deal much damage. Weapon upgrades should feel like an improvement to your weapon that makes it easier to tackle hard content, yet currently it often feels like weapon upgrades are the mandatory requirement for tackling harder difficulties, and even then enemies often out-scale Relic weapon damage to the point that said weapons don't feel nearly as powerful as they should.  

100% agree 

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AlphaOmegaMan wrote:

The headshot damage is fine, but the gap between headshot damage and everything else damage is definitely too big. Don't fix that by nerfing headshot damage, fix it by increasing damage to everything else. It should not take 6-8 rounds from a relic bolt rifle to bring down a gaunt. It makes no sense on any difficulty and violates the lore to an egregious extent.

Because they, Saber, dont actually care about lore accuracy. They only claim they do to pay lip service to the new comers and the extreme casuals who get their warhammer knowledge from Bricky.

The soda can sized, rocket propelled, explosive rounds the bolters fire should be instant death headshots to all but extremis+ enemies. Hell even 5 bolt rounds to the chest should be enough to mulch majoris. This is why Tacticals headshot auspex is so good. It actually makes your legendary Boltrifle feel as it should.

Fact is, the devs have zero idea on how to balance this game. If they buff weapons too much then the game becomes significantly less frustrating to play solo since you'd have a reasonable TTK which goes against their "frustrate you into co-op" design philosophy that this game oozes from every pour. This has been made clear by the multiple weapon nerfs they've handed out since launch while ignoring the actual issues. These are the people who, when told block weapons suck and are completely useless, decided to nerf fencing weapon parry windows.

If anything, certain Bolt guns could use more headshot damage. Some have only x1.0 heardshot multiplier (I "think" that means two times the normal damage?). But yeah the Sniper Guns are pretty crap unless you score those headshots. Easy on Zoanthropes but hard on a raging Carnifex or Helbrute. That is why I like the Stalker so much on Sniper, I can spamm pretty decent damage bodyshots even is the Carnifex is turned around or rushing back and forth.

Well, the HS damage to me is fine.

But I get it, some people don`t like it, maybe they could add a dificulty setting for that.. don`t know 

Christ this forum is absolutely infested with salty entitled whiners, I came here hoping it’d be better than Reddit on that front but it seems a lot worse sadly. Just play minimal where you can slaughter stuff with a few shots, if you want that experience (which is sometimes fun)

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aseymour87 wrote:

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Eranise wrote:

IHaveMaxedTheGameDontAtMe wrote:

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The soda can sized, rocket propelled, explosive rounds the bolters fire should be instant death headshots to all but extremis+ enemies. Hell even 5 bolt rounds to the chest should be enough to mulch majoris. 

Its not even close to soda can.  Bolters rounds are 3/4 inch, it's more like a man's thumb. 

Rocketpropelled (actually they are 2-stages propelled) means that they are pretty slow at start and will gain speed as they move. We are shooting like 10-20 meters away - worst possible scenario. Basicly rocket part (2nd stage) cant even start to accelerate our bolt )

Explosive rounds - they are clearly not explosive in game. (we can find dozens or explanations why's that). And thats a TINY amount of explosives anyway. Even minoris (they are human sized creatures) can survive that.

There are some incorrect assumptions here. Strap in, this post is about to get real nerdy. Regarding the explosive payload in a 3/4 inch (19 mm) standard bolter round: This is very close to size of a 20 mm explosive cannon shell that is used in some modern antiaircraft guns mounted on fighter aircraft. Because gun engagement windows in modern air-to-air combat are so narrow (many hits are very unlikely), these rounds are designed to down a target aircraft with just one or two hits. The U.S. air force made the change from the .50 (1/2 inch) solid slug round to the 20 mm cannon at the end of the Korean war because of inadequate damage being done by the .50 round. However, against human and light armored vehicles, the .50 cal round remains catastrophically destructive. Thus, the assertion that a minoris (human sized target) would typically survive a 19 mm explosive payload detonating inside of them is false.

Aircrafts are really soft targets. Thats why we need exposive damage - basicly its just a relly strong wind. More than enough for aircrafts.  And that type on damage wont work well on armored targets. And it wont oneshot any minoris nids if you aim for arm or leg. Even with small explosion inside it.  Humans wont die too from 0.5 leg hit. We die from blood loss or pain shock, not from the hit itself. 

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aseymour87 wrote:

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Eranise wrote:

IHaveMaxedTheGameDontAtMe wrote:

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The soda can sized, rocket propelled, explosive rounds the bolters fire should be instant death headshots to all but extremis+ enemies. Hell even 5 bolt rounds to the chest should be enough to mulch majoris. 

Its not even close to soda can.  Bolters rounds are 3/4 inch, it's more like a man's thumb. 

Rocketpropelled (actually they are 2-stages propelled) means that they are pretty slow at start and will gain speed as they move. We are shooting like 10-20 meters away - worst possible scenario. Basicly rocket part (2nd stage) cant even start to accelerate our bolt )

Explosive rounds - they are clearly not explosive in game. (we can find dozens or explanations why's that). And thats a TINY amount of explosives anyway. Even minoris (they are human sized creatures) can survive that.

The assumption regarding an anemic close range performance of bolter rounds is also inaccurate. A two staged (cartridge fired and rocket propelled) projectile does not by default have to have a weak first stage charge. Instead, the first stage can initially accelerate the round to speeds comparable to a traditional rifle round, with the rocket motor being used to extend the range of the round or allow it to exceed even greater speeds. 

So i was correct - rocket part wont do anything special that close. 

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Zoaza wrote:

Christ this forum is absolutely infested with salty entitled whiners, I came here hoping it’d be better than Reddit on that front but it seems a lot worse sadly. Just play minimal where you can slaughter stuff with a few shots, if you want that experience (which is sometimes fun)

I'm glad you exist, brother, and concur with this take. I, like my Raven Guard brothers,  prefer spicy fights.

I actually have been thinking that Sniper should get an automatic default increase to Headshot Damage by default. Sniper in PVE & PVP should have a set multiplier towards it's headshot damage so it assumes more of a Sniper identity. Headshots are hard to perform depending on your controller or keyboard setup & Sniper should have a Perk that makes heads pop more often, generally speaking.