Greetings fellow Astartes, I hope my transmission finds you well and without the taint of the warp ;P.

Before I get on my soap box I just want to thank Saber and Focus for bringing Space Marine back to us and our community. Many of nights I have sat in party chats talking to battle-brothers and heretics wishing we could get a update to Space Marine 1 or "wishful" thinking, what a Space Marine 2 could and would look like. So, As a true son of the Emperor and 13 years of constant purging experience from the original. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. What you have brought to us in regards to the campaign is truly mind blowing. In my opinion a true Masterpiece of a campaign. The operations are wonderful to play and amazing in how it ties into the campaign.

I don't want this to come off as ungrateful and unappreciative of what we have, my hope is that I can get my ideas across in a constructive manner. So, with that here is my soap box...

 I currently feel like the melee in PvP is pretty lack luster compared to SM1 in a couple areas. Whether I'm shooting someone hacking on me, or being shot while hacking on someone. point blank fire kills faster then melee for the most part. I know the power fist can now one shot after patch and that the over head with the hammer slaps as well. 

1.  Bring back body/barrel movement when being struck by a melee weapon. In SM1 when you struck a opponent in melee it moved the barrel of the gun, knocking it off target. Thus giving the melee combatant the advantage in melee. ATM I don't feel the need to swing in melee when shooting does the job faster, and IMO that doesn't feel like 40k combat.
2. Allow heavy attacks to stun in PvP like it does in PvE and remove the break guard affect. The heavy attack animation is exactly the same has the stunning and striking from SM1 but is now used to break guard. This feels lack luster imo, it caters to the players that just spam lights and heavy's in a true hack n slash manner. thus removing the skill of melee combat from SM1. The Stun and stun strike combos from SM1 allowed a Astartes to continue to seize the advantage they achieved in melee, OR come back in the melee fight with a stun to try and get the advantage. this allowed for a 'dance' to happen in SM1 and separated battle line Astartes from rising champions.
3. Change the block/parry ability to counter the stun attack. The block/parry is a new mechanic in SM2 that personally, I think is awesome. I just feel like in PvP it doesn't really do much but keep you alive vs a hack n slash light attack and pray you have a 3rd party savior. I believe if you made the parry now counter the stun attack this could allow for even more flow in melee. truly allowing for some very unique combat and dueling experiences.

I would also like to see what groups are partied up with each other. In SM1 we had skulls next to our names. this allowed everyone to see and know who was partied with who. As it stands, you can only guess who is partied up with who via the experience of team work in a match.

I think that you should allow for full stacks (6 Astartes parties) I understand that this would make some lobbies seem unfair. As a 6 man group, that is very formidable, but this is 40k and our online community has chapters/warbands wanting to play with and against each other. the fact that this is not allowed atm is kind of heart breaking. some of my greatest memories from SM1 was going into a lobby, seeing another chapter beating the "randos" to a pulp. Calling in my Chapter to reinforce and the fight is on. Or vice versa, be beating a rando lobbies senseless to shortly having another chapter/warband find us and bring the fight. Its truly and great experience and one i think SM2 should have. After all the we are Astartes representing our chapter/warband..let us honor it through glorious combat.

anyways this is my soap box..i say these things cause I really think it would help the PvP experience. Yes i am a old dog from the SM1 era that played PvP up until the day SM2 dropped. I started way back in 2011 and played both on the xbox 360 and PC. 

I am truly grateful for the opportunity to play SM2, it is a wonderful game. I hear the heretics getting rowdy again so i must take my leave..

Faith & Fire

Agree 1000% that melee needs some sort of 50/50 or RPS style interaction, and I love the idea of melee attacks throwing gun aim off.  I never played SM1 so I can't speak to it, but I'm really only seeing reasonable ideas up there. 

I'll be curious what they end up doing. 

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Bladerunner777 wrote:

"point blank fire kills faster then melee for the most part. I know the power fist can now one shot after patch and that the over head with the hammer slaps as well. " And let's keep it this way because it's fair. Why point blank fire wouldn't kill anybody faster than melee ? If you want to one shot enemies as an assault - you have the options-power fist, hammer but the ranged guys need to have a chance to defend themdelves too, that's why point bank shooting should also be effective. I see you look at things from the assault guy perpective mostly.

Ranged guys can defend themselves by shooting anyone trying to get into melee, then meleeing themselves when someone is swinging a massive hammer in their face.  Also, all it takes is for one teammate to turn and shoot an Assault to basically neutralize them. 

You seem to want ranged to be better at ranged, and ranged to be better at melee.  Talk about bias. 

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Relic wrote:

I would also like to see what groups are partied up with each other. In SM1 we had skulls next to our names. this allowed everyone to see and know who was partied with who. As it stands, you can only guess who is partied up with who via the experience of team work in a match.

I think that you should allow for full stacks (6 Astartes parties) I understand that this would make some lobbies seem unfair. 

Yes, to all your points, I agree.   The key is to allow players who don't want the challenge to skip the challenge of a six-person team.

 Either match-making doesn't pair six random new players with a full stack of vets, or if it has to, an obvious sign of who is paired with whom.  This way, players can escape if they want.

Even now, six randos vs two three stacks is rough but not impossible, as sometimes each team will get disjointed when each is on private chat.   Random lobbies after each PVP map would help balance that roughness and make it easier to stick with a lobby.   A six-player lobby would be an exciting challenge that should be optional.

How do we upvote? Someone get this man a corner office on the Dev team for pvp

10 points to Gryffindor!

The biggest problem for reasonable mechanics is how fast TTK is in SM2's PvP. Especially in a team game, if someone drops on you in melee, one of you is going to die almost immediately. Either their teammate fires on you or your teammate fires on them. 

Irrespective of whether heavies break block or blocking counters heavies, that melee encounter will stop in one or two seconds at most with one of you dead. I can see why it's not a robust system. The only time it really comes up is on peels or people wandering around trying to gank.

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Bladerunner777 wrote:

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FatherGoose wrote:

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Bladerunner777 wrote:

"point blank fire kills faster then melee for the most part. I know the power fist can now one shot after patch and that the over head with the hammer slaps as well. " And let's keep it this way because it's fair. Why point blank fire wouldn't kill anybody faster than melee ? If you want to one shot enemies as an assault - you have the options-power fist, hammer but the ranged guys need to have a chance to defend themdelves too, that's why point bank shooting should also be effective. I see you look at things from the assault guy perpective mostly.

Ranged guys can defend themselves by shooting anyone trying to get into melee, then meleeing themselves when someone is swinging a massive hammer in their face.  Also, all it takes is for one teammate to turn and shoot an Assault to basically neutralize them. 

You seem to want ranged to be better at ranged, and ranged to be better at melee.  Talk about bias. 

Listen, I don't see why the devs would have to implement a special, new mechanics to nerf the ranged weapons once the assaulter gets into melee contact with them ? Because what you ask for means exactly this. Sorry but that's kinda ridiculous. "My bolter kills so nice at 20 meters range, brother, but once the enemy gets closer it doesn't kill anymore" XD

edit - it's your business, the melee guys to close the distance in such a way not to get shot - you have the right tool to do that: jet packs, grapnels and shields , yet you wanna castrate the only good weapon a tactical has - his bolter, just to make the life even easier for you, lol.

Yes, I'm asking for that, because I think it'll make the game better.  Also do Tacs not get chainswords?  Don't you have a melee button?  Imo if someone engages you in melee then you should have to use it.  

OP is being generous, I think melee hits from some weapons should stagger to force the enemy on the defensive.  

The key here is balance. All the classes are balanced, the trick is to use guns. You don't melee unless it's necessary. Pistol ttk is faster than the melee weapons. Use the pistol, melee is for those under the shield strikes. 

Bladerunner, your insults just make you look like a child.  Grow up.

The game has a robust hybridization between melee and ranged, with a whole melee system that pvp just ignores right now.  I love that system, so I want to see some form of it in pvp.  It's that simple.  If they don't change anything, I'll keep playing.

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Bladerunner777 wrote:

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FatherGoose wrote:

Bladerunner, your insults just make you look like a child.  Grow up.

The game has a robust hybridization between melee and ranged, with a whole melee system that pvp just ignores right now.  I love that system, so I want to see some form of it in pvp.  It's that simple.  If they don't change anything, I'll keep playing.

Ofc they won't. If you wanna have better scores, use your weapons better instead of asking devs to make the opponents ones weaker - what kind of fair play spirit is this ? Melee classes are not neglected here, you have all the toys that you need , just learn to use them. I see assaults topping the chart in almost every match, so all is good with melee.

Honestly, I'm asking them to nerf Assault with the changes i want.  Melee would be more difficult and likely take longer to secure kills easily, which leaves you exposed longer.  If you land close enough to someone right now it's one dash attack and they're dead.  The change to ranged usage while someone is in melee with you is just to put more emphasis on the melee interaction. 

If you continue to not understand what it is that I want, please ask questions.  I've tried to be clear, but you aren't getting something. 

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FatherGoose wrote:

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Bladerunner777 wrote:

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FatherGoose wrote:

Bladerunner, your insults just make you look like a child.  Grow up.

The game has a robust hybridization between melee and ranged, with a whole melee system that pvp just ignores right now.  I love that system, so I want to see some form of it in pvp.  It's that simple.  If they don't change anything, I'll keep playing.

Ofc they won't. If you wanna have better scores, use your weapons better instead of asking devs to make the opponents ones weaker - what kind of fair play spirit is this ? Melee classes are not neglected here, you have all the toys that you need , just learn to use them. I see assaults topping the chart in almost every match, so all is good with melee.

Honestly, I'm asking them to nerf Assault with the changes i want.  Melee would be more difficult and likely take longer to secure kills easily, which leaves you exposed longer.  If you land close enough to someone right now it's one dash attack and they're dead.  The change to ranged usage while someone is in melee with you is just to put more emphasis on the melee interaction. 

If you continue to not understand what it is that I want, please ask questions.  I've tried to be clear, but you aren't getting something. 

There are good arguments for more shake/stun. Seems like it ought to be a value per weapon. Classes and melee selections should probably have their own stun resistances too. Either way it's fine. 

Space Marines are disciplined and can keep shooting in melee, I'm perfectly fine with either approach. 

I dueled for awhile in SM1. I remember it was quite fun. But couldn't tell you the control nuance as it's been a decade ago. 

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MrsHeadshott wrote:

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FatherGoose wrote:

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Bladerunner777 wrote:

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FatherGoose wrote:

Bladerunner, your insults just make you look like a child.  Grow up.

The game has a robust hybridization between melee and ranged, with a whole melee system that pvp just ignores right now.  I love that system, so I want to see some form of it in pvp.  It's that simple.  If they don't change anything, I'll keep playing.

Ofc they won't. If you wanna have better scores, use your weapons better instead of asking devs to make the opponents ones weaker - what kind of fair play spirit is this ? Melee classes are not neglected here, you have all the toys that you need , just learn to use them. I see assaults topping the chart in almost every match, so all is good with melee.

Honestly, I'm asking them to nerf Assault with the changes i want.  Melee would be more difficult and likely take longer to secure kills easily, which leaves you exposed longer.  If you land close enough to someone right now it's one dash attack and they're dead.  The change to ranged usage while someone is in melee with you is just to put more emphasis on the melee interaction. 

If you continue to not understand what it is that I want, please ask questions.  I've tried to be clear, but you aren't getting something. 

There are good arguments for more shake/stun. Seems like it ought to be a value per weapon. Classes and melee selections should probably have their own stun resistances too. Either way it's fine. 

Space Marines are disciplined and can keep shooting in melee, I'm perfectly fine with either approach. 

I dueled for awhile in SM1. I remember it was quite fun. But couldn't tell you the control nuance as it's been a decade ago. 

Yeah, I would be fine if, for example, Heavy could stand and deliver in the face of melee.  I just want a little extra spice.  I don't know that any space marine would keep their bolter out if a Banshee got in their face and started swinging, for example.  All the lore content I've read suggests they love to pull out the melee weapon and go ham.

But lore aside, I just selfishly want a more interesting melee Experience.  But I'm a For Honor/FGC guy, not a CoD/Gears guy. 

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Bladerunner777 wrote:

"Yeah, I would be fine if, for example, Heavy could stand and deliver in the face of melee.  I just want a little extra spice.  I don't know that any space marine would keep their bolter out if a Banshee got in their face and started swinging, for example.  All the lore content I've read suggests they love to pull out the melee weapon and go ham.

But lore aside, I just selfishly want a more interesting melee Experience.  But I'm a For Honor/FGC guy, not a CoD/Gears guy. "

Oh, "extra spice" - that in your books means much "less spice" on the side of your enemies ? Sure, this is so cool, let's handicap the ranged classes so that the melee guys can feel some of their sweet "extra spice" XD I will repeat because you seem not to understand one crucial thing; the defender decides what weapon to use to defend himself, not the attacker - this is very simple, I am not telling you how to melee me, right ? so don't tell me how I should defend myself. Why wouldn't a SM keep their bolter out in front of a Banshee ? That would be the most instinctive and fastest reaction, they are trained for it. You see a threat, aim, pull the trigger - instead of dropping your main weapon and reaching for a sword instead. Yes you seem to be very selfish all the time and it's so funny. You probably forget that Space Marine 2 is not a melee duel simulator - you have both, melee and shooting and they are equal, which you don't seem to like :D

You want Call of Duty, I want Space Marine 2.  That's all this is.  But I'm done responding to you now until you come up with something that's worth responding to. 

Interestingly, i just recently saw a tip in game before a pvp match saying successful melee attacks regenerate armor.  I went back through some gameplay, and it seems like sometimes it does give a full armor bar back when I land  ground pound and my dash attack with assault.   A few times i didn't get anything. 

A full armor bar for such a slow attack isn't much, but they're clearly thinking about the relationship between melee and ranged.  There's another tip that mentions that light attacks can be blocked or parried,  but they seemingly made all the melee weapons Block.  So they've at least thought about that too.

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FatherGoose wrote:

Interestingly, i just recently saw a tip in game before a pvp match saying successful melee attacks regenerate armor.  I went back through some gameplay, and it seems like sometimes it does give a full armor bar back when I land  ground pound and my dash attack with assault.   A few times i didn't get anything. 

A full armor bar for such a slow attack isn't much, but they're clearly thinking about the relationship between melee and ranged.  There's another tip that mentions that light attacks can be blocked or parried,  but they seemingly made all the melee weapons Block.  So they've at least thought about that too.

PvP melee gives shields, the gun DPS just powers through it. 

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MrsHeadshott wrote:

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FatherGoose wrote:

Interestingly, i just recently saw a tip in game before a pvp match saying successful melee attacks regenerate armor.  I went back through some gameplay, and it seems like sometimes it does give a full armor bar back when I land  ground pound and my dash attack with assault.   A few times i didn't get anything. 

A full armor bar for such a slow attack isn't much, but they're clearly thinking about the relationship between melee and ranged.  There's another tip that mentions that light attacks can be blocked or parried,  but they seemingly made all the melee weapons Block.  So they've at least thought about that too.

PvP melee gives shields, the gun DPS just powers through it. 

Yeah, it seems to be about 1.5 shots per bar of armour (or less)  so it isn't much. But it indicates they're thinking about the relationship at least. 

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Densest_Pioter wrote:

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Bladerunner777 wrote:

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FatherGoose wrote:

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Bladerunner777 wrote:

"Yeah, I would be fine if, for example, Heavy could stand and deliver in the face of melee.  I just want a little extra spice.  I don't know that any space marine would keep their bolter out if a Banshee got in their face and started swinging, for example.  All the lore content I've read suggests they love to pull out the melee weapon and go ham.

But lore aside, I just selfishly want a more interesting melee Experience.  But I'm a For Honor/FGC guy, not a CoD/Gears guy. "

Oh, "extra spice" - that in your books means much "less spice" on the side of your enemies ? Sure, this is so cool, let's handicap the ranged classes so that the melee guys can feel some of their sweet "extra spice" XD I will repeat because you seem not to understand one crucial thing; the defender decides what weapon to use to defend himself, not the attacker - this is very simple, I am not telling you how to melee me, right ? so don't tell me how I should defend myself. Why wouldn't a SM keep their bolter out in front of a Banshee ? That would be the most instinctive and fastest reaction, they are trained for it. You see a threat, aim, pull the trigger - instead of dropping your main weapon and reaching for a sword instead. Yes you seem to be very selfish all the time and it's so funny. You probably forget that Space Marine 2 is not a melee duel simulator - you have both, melee and shooting and they are equal, which you don't seem to like :D

You want Call of Duty, I want Space Marine 2.  That's all this is.  But I'm done responding to you now until you come up with something that's worth responding to. 

No bro, pls don't tell what I want, I never said anything like that, I never even played CoD once in my life. What you suggest is SM2 without shooting or even better, with handicapped shooting so that you, melee guys can have easier life. Lol, never gonna happen :D

You're missing a few points. 

If a guy is cutting you with a chainsword, power hammer, hell... a combat knife. Should you still be able to shoot straight without any concern while the blade is ripping through your arm or when it even hits the bolter and not the user directly (if we consider some more real scenario)? 

I don't think so. You can decide whichever weapon you'd like to use but you should just not be able to aim or shoot with any reasonable accuracy the moment a blade hits you because it's just unreal. Try to shoot sth when you're being hit xD. Even if you manage to land a few bullets on someone by semi-randomly swinging the gun, it should still not be a burst of aimed full magazine and 10/10 bullseye.

I won't buy the argument that they're space marines trained for it, superhumans stronger etc. because well.. so is the opponent except just the evil one. 

"You probably forget that Space Marine 2 is not a melee duel simulator - you have both, melee and shooting and they are equal, which you don't seem to like :D"

This is false, they are NOT equal for at least the reasons i have stated here, Furthermore armor gain from melee won't compensate for any benefit of shooting, You're still get bursted, just a bit slower in a duel. 

There are 2 major issues with melee:

1st is already mentioned - meleeing a bolter guy

2nd is melee vs melee - was told already by countless people, whoever's first wins a fight, no matter the weapon. Maybe simplified "For Honor" combat would be the way? At the moment when i use power hammer, it kinda feels heavy just for the user, not the victim. these hits should really stagger upon hit whie making it possible to dodge and as for charged attacks, should do longer and AoE stagger than normal.

I'm gonna point (AGAIN) to Eternal Crusade and how they implemented it, It was not perfect but really looked like taken straight from DoW1 when guy A reached guy B and started striking him with melee, guy B could only fight melee as long as guy A kept hitting him. Again, not perfect but thus included some more complexity in fights. 

It is not trying to make it "more realistic". 2 of the 3 mechanics i stated above where core mechanics in SM1 ... the original Space Marine game ... the 3rd mechanic is taking what the implemented in too SM2 but building upon it in a logic manner from the previous foundations set in SM1. What i'm asking for isn't nurfing ranged at all. as a matter of fact. nothing changes with ranged other then when a player makes it to melee they actually stand a fighting chance to do dmg then being shot. there is a reason why relic/thq had these concepts in the original, and these are some of the reasons people kept playing it long after it was dead.  

As an SM1 vet myself, I also 1000% agree. Melee combat needs a rework. In addition to what you mentioned, the attacks are too slow, don't deal enough damage, and don't have the sticking power as they can just dodge away and shoot you. 

The heavy recoil to aim while being hit by melee attacks is a must.

The melee only dealing damage to HP needs to be removed so you can finish targets with a pistol before they escape.

Great comments, I can't disagree that melee should be redesigned in PvP for a more comfortable and interesting game. 

I also want to add that it would be incredibly cool and interesting to get a PvP leveling tree the way it was in the first part of the game, in order to add at least some sense to leveling classes in this mode and add more tactical diversity to PvP players.​