As is, there's really no incentive to use the HBR outside of LARPing under the tabletop rules, and that seems to be the reason he was given the HBR at all. In the current build, choosing the HBR just turns the class into Tactical but worse.

My suggestion is that there's a check on which primary weapon is selected, and if you pick the HBR, you gain access to the Combat Knife and Chainsword, which in itself is just as equally tabletop accurate. Selecting any of the two-handed heavy weapons force checks you into the standard weapon bash option and disables the melee weapon options.

Incidentally, if Assault ever gets primary weapons like in that one screenshot, do the same check system so primary weapons simply disable the Power Fist and Thunder Hammer since they mess with how animations would work with two-handed weapons.

​

HN971 wrote:

Why? So that you can play a very bad Tactical?

Heavy should absolutely NOT get a melee weapon, what they need is a proper Heavy Stance when aiming with the Heavy Bolt Rifle. Something that increase rate of fire, accuracy, damage, range and penetration WITHOUT "zooming in" (unless you have the scope version of the gun).

Heavy using HBR with no melee option is literally a worse Tactical, that's the entire point.

Why would a gun that Tactical can use with ease get a heavy stance that magically modifies the entire gun's mechanics? Heavy plants his legs and suddenly the HBR is firing higher caliber rounds that fly further and penetrate armor harder? That's not how any of Heavy's current weapons work, the base heavy stance simply increases fire rate and reduces spread under the notion Heavy cannot handle the maximum fire rate without being braced, not because it can't shoot that fast at all. The HBR's maximum fire rate can be handled by Tactical, so now you'd have to make the gun worse for that class for it to fit the wedge you've deemed suitable for Heavy. You also have the problem of not being able to buff this hypothetical heavy stance with related perks, because Tactical would be unable to utilize them, they'd be dead in the tree and Tactical would lose out on at least 4 slots.

Heavy getting melee options to go alongside the HBR would not only make it a viable choice over the Heavy Bolter, it gives the class another unique build that would actually gel into the forced meme melee perks the devs keep focusing on.

I mean Heavy Intercessors are a thing. So I don't see why not. It beats having to wait for a potential (not actually going to happen) new class for them to add to get to be one. Is it optimal? Probably not, but I have actually been having a blast with the HBR to clear Minoris waves after popping the Halo, then stomping the yard and instant killing a tonne of them with the melee prestige perks. And pulling out the HBP on anything Majoris and up. And I've been very successful with those runs. A death or two to be sure now and again. And granted I do think they could add a few more prestige perks to the heavy weapon playstyles, I have welcome this change and been having a great time being a wrecking ball.

That said, I think they should go no further than what is standard issue for an Astartes for melee weapons. Chainsword and Tac knife respectively.

​

HN971 wrote:

​

Shotgunky wrote:

​

HN971 wrote:

Why? So that you can play a very bad Tactical?

Heavy should absolutely NOT get a melee weapon, what they need is a proper Heavy Stance when aiming with the Heavy Bolt Rifle. Something that increase rate of fire, accuracy, damage, range and penetration WITHOUT "zooming in" (unless you have the scope version of the gun).

Heavy using HBR with no melee option is literally a worse Tactical, that's the entire point.

So... giving it a melee weapon, to LITERALLY make it like a tactical (but without all the perks that actually make the gun work for a tactical) is your solution?

My guy, the problem of that weapon on Heavy isn't that it plays not enough like a tactical, it's that it doesn't play like a heavy enough.

This weapon is the only one that doesn't have any Heavy Stance bonus, which is why it sucks big time.

Just give it a heavy stance, make it so that it become perfectly accurate (literally 0 spray or deviation), make it so that you don't have a zoom (pointless when you are pinpoint accurate), being able to stay aware of your surrounding is more important, and give it a solid Damage, range, penetration and attack speed bonus while on heavy stance.

On top of that, tag on the Multimelta perk a "Reload you Heavy Bolt Rifle when you perform a gunstrike" and suddenly you got a very decent weapon that ACTUALLY play like heavy.

You are hypothetically creating parameters to a weapon that do not exist for any of Heavy's other base weapons, for the sake of making it play more like a weapon he already has when it's heavily perked out and using damage/spread modifiers -- that being the Heavy Bolter. Again, the heavy weapons do not receive damage bonuses, armor penetration etc. in the base heavy stance, those are perks applied via their trees. The Heavy Bolt Rifle cannot have these as perks, and you're brushing over the fact these would have to be innate aspects of the gun. Meaning if the Heavy Bolt Rifle innately had e.g. 30%+ more damage, 30% less spread, 30% higher fire rate etc. while in heavy stance, on top of its standard perk tree, all you're doing is still creating a worse Heavy Bolter that has to reload after 50ish shots constantly.

Meanwhile, just giving him an actual melee weapon creates a unique playstyle for the class separate from the Heavy Bolter.

I wonder if they could implement a method to switch stances and go into a heavy brace when using non heavy weapons like the HBR? Like normally while you are aiming if you go to zoom in, it zooms in. But if you are using a non heavy weapon, you can aim normally but, rather than zooming in, if you hit the alt fire, you would then enter the braced stance and simply lock it into his hip and then it'd act as if it were braced with the pros and cons that would normally be applied? You wouldn't be able to zoom in with the HBR anymore, but then you have access to the braced accurate fire. Perhaps even increase reload speed (slightly) while in it?

That said, it is a lot of work to just get into brace when the heavy weapons can do the same thing but faster. Could be rather clunky perhaps as well trying to do it quickly.

What is with the pathological obsession that some people in this forum have with trying to push the Heavy class to play more like all of the other classes in the game? Can't we let the Heavy's unique playstyle exist (be left alone) while people who want to play like a Tactical or Vanguard can just....play a Tactical or a Vanguard?

The Heavy does not need access to melee weapons, at that point it ceases to be the Heavy, how is that hard to understand?

Some people only enjoy the playstyle that is offered by the Heavy class as a ranged combatant, is your goal to push them out of the game? If so, keep egging Saber on to make melee a focus for the Heavy class and these players will leave. I for one have no intention of wasting time grinding out 100 levels of progression for perks that add ZERO capabilities to the parts of the game that I enjoy and I have no reason to use a gun that is balanced around adding a melee weapon to the class either.

Putting the HBR (with a tac knife as a possible option should it be picked) on the Heavy doesn't take away from the core available better weapons. Optimal, definitely not. But even more-so than adding a ghetto version of a sub class, which I am in favour of, like an Intercessor in the case with the Heavy in this case. It also fixes the issue of having weapons hard locked to 1 or 2 classes. Of which before this update the HBR was exclusive to Tac. And opening up weapon loadouts to more classes is going to eliminate the inevitable stand-off of two people wanting to level up a weapon, and neither wanting to budge on swapping classes. You either sit there and be stuck there, or someone leaves and go back into que. Which granted for now isn't too bad. 

While some restrictions should stay, like sniper weapons on sniper and heavies staying on heavies. Some overlap for weapons is fine. The classes and their abilities are what should be made special. The weapons are simply what you use to kill things. And as I said, don't get me wrong. Everything should not be available to everyone either. That is going to far in the opposite direction. If they don't add a tac knife. Fair. I will still run the HBR with my HBP. As that in my eyes the true addition that enables the HBR to be somewhat viable and a choice. The plasma pistol is good for sure. But it uses too much ammo to be leaned in on for charged attacks and pair it with the HBR. In my eyes anyways.

​

KittyChillder wrote:

You two are against people having fun and you're feeling each others up. Your arbitrary opinion of what is good or bad is as equally annoying as how belittling you act when any dares to disagree. I hope you two would get banned, not for your opinion but for how unconstructively critical and arrogant you are. 

For what's it worth OP, these people have been Hounding anyone who defends heavy having any sort of playstyle other than shooting. Pay them no further attention. 

As for you two? Touch grass. 

Kitty, the only argument that I keep seeing people throw around is that 'options can only be good' but in a world where development time and balance are factors that companies need to be aware of, options cost something. So what people like you and shining_darkness seem to misunderstand is that your version of fun being added to the last class in the game to not have it will diminish the fun of the people who like the way the class currently functions. This is change would be inevitable for balance reasons, otherwise the game would become the Astartes Overhaul mod (which I would be fine with) but the game devs won't let that happen, for everything they add, they will have to prune something from (or not add it to) somewhere else.

And you think I should be banned for pointing these facts out to people? This forum is supposed to be a critical space where players can voice their thoughts on the proposed changes brought in 7.0 and from what I have seen from every balance team in any game that doesn't treat balance like a meme, the changes will ruin what makes the Heavy class fun to play. What exactly is your angle here? Why do you feel the need to drag the Heavy class into the same playstyle that all of the other classes have baked into them?

​

Liiff wrote:

​

KittyChillder wrote:

You two are against people having fun and you're feeling each others up. Your arbitrary opinion of what is good or bad is as equally annoying as how belittling you act when any dares to disagree. I hope you two would get banned, not for your opinion but for how unconstructively critical and arrogant you are. 

For what's it worth OP, these people have been Hounding anyone who defends heavy having any sort of playstyle other than shooting. Pay them no further attention. 

As for you two? Touch grass. 

Kitty, the only argument that I keep seeing people throw around is that 'options can only be good' but in a world where development time and balance are factors that companies need to be aware of, options cost something. So what people like you and shining_darkness seem to misunderstand is that your version of fun being added to the last class in the game to not have it will diminish the fun of the people who like the way the class currently functions. This is change would be inevitable for balance reasons, otherwise the game would become the Astartes Overhaul mod (which I would be fine with) but the game devs won't let that happen, for everything they add, they will have to prune something from (or not add it to) somewhere else.

And you think I should be banned for pointing these facts out to people? This forum is supposed to be a critical space where players can voice their thoughts on the proposed changes brought in 7.0 and from what I have seen from every balance team in any game that doesn't treat balance like a meme, the changes will ruin what makes the Heavy class fun to play. What exactly is your angle here? Why do you feel the need to drag the Heavy class into the same playstyle that all of the other classes have baked into them?

You are not being critical, you are being aggressive. You belittle the opinions and suggestions of people that you don't agree with and don't even try to offer a compromise between the two ideas. You are not here to discuss, you are here to argue your point. 

You have, for some reason, decided that in order for them to add something they have to take something away and that makes zero logical sense, heck there is even screen real-estate on the prestige perk choice screen to add one ore even two more choices on some classes. Even if there were not, they could simply downsize the boxes to add another row. There are loads of ways to add more choice without removing anything.

You are literally saying a CHOICE that you can choose not to make will somehow ruin the class. In your head you have decided it is a dichotomy and if one thing is added/kept the other must be discarded. You can have both melee options and ranged/ammo options. That is the entire point of a pick your perks system, everyone can make different choices even if those choices are not "optimal."

Take a step back and evaluate what you are saying and why people are taking it as overly negative/hostile. Heck you brought me up in a reply to someone else just to take a dig at me. Your entire argument is "your idea of fun is wrong, adding your idea would ruin my fun even though your idea is to add an option to select something that I don't have to pick." I don't think YOUR idea of fun is wrong, in fact I agree with it and want BOTH ​to be added/implemented so the most people possible can have the most fun possible.

Hope you have a wonderful day, you clearly need it.