Just wanted to say that while I do think the reworks are in the right direction I still feel heavy needs some more love on his prestige perks

1 specific change for me would be making it more consistent/easier to trigger the new ammo regen perk he gets.

Considering heavies often are supposed to stay further back than other classes. Running in to try and take the extremis execute just doesn't seem very reliable

Maybe if it was on majoris execute instead and had a cool down that would make the perk alot better and still not be as insane as snipers new regen perk

Thoughts?

If they are perfectly okay giving sniper esentially infinate ammo with their new prestige perk then i dont think heavy having a less situational way to regain ammo is a bad thing. If anything he needs it the most. As you mentioned, other classes have melee options when they run out of ammo. Heavy can stomp sure but it doesn't do much damage and even with the melee dmg increase perk I can't see melee heavy being a suddenly viable thing beyond substantial at best.

I think that's my biggest gripe. If ammo regen was like this across the board then I wouldn't mind. But seeing how classes with options other than range get substantially better ammo regen options is so frustrating

I've had issues with the heavy meltgun since launch, in that the ammo refund in the weapon upgrade tree simply did not work. It made it barely useable and not fun on anything above normal difficulty. I think the issue was a rounding error- so why not make one prestige that adds an additional amount to all ammo refunds, or triggers them all at once when any are triggered, making pure ammo build feel as rewarding as pure performance? your idea for restore x amount of non-mag fed weapons would make the gl good at sustained cc too!

​

Liiff wrote:

This is just insulting at this point, ignoring player feedback is one thing, but acknowledging the problem of melee focused perks and then just giving us different melee focused perks is as good as calling us a bunch of morons, as though we just wouldn't notice. Saber, the issue wasn't the type of melee perks given to the class, the issue was the focus of the perks themselves. Say it with me:

We
Want

Class

Identity
ENHANCING (ranged focused, give us ammo, ranged damage, ranged accuracy, ammo regen)

Perks

We do not want bigger baby stomps and larger parry windows, I like the short window, it gives me something to get better at and it gives me an excuse to shoot my gun more, since the class is, you know, better at doing that. Struggling for ammo is not engaging gameplay for the class that is built around shooting, it would be like adding a stamina bar for melee classes, so they have to stop swinging while in the middle of killing a pack, it just isn't fun. So give me mechanics that help me generate more rocket propelled fun capsules in a way that doesn't punish the playstyle of the class.

The only half decent perk that you gave us is a perk that gives us primary ammo back for *checks notes* killing an extremis enemy in melee. Not only is that rare, it also represents the situation that Heavies avoid. Will it happen? Sure, but don't encourage it, let us play the game to have fun the way we want to play it, stop fighting us. Fighting the tide of fun in a game established by players is like running a restaurant whose premise is to serve food to its customers that they do not like, it is just bad business.

To be fair ONE prestige perk dedicated to melee is perfectly fine, I mean there are at least 6 other options and you only get 4 picks so if one or two perks out of 6-7 are in a slightly different direction than the core class I think that is healthy for variety. But yeah, too many of the Heavy prestige perks have melee-centric mechanics. The AoE on stomp increase I think does actually fit him very well, you stomp to get swarms off you, bigger stomp means they don't get as close/get pushed farther away. He certainly does not need bigger parry windows I rarely parry in the first place. Normally I just dodge and shoot. Also like none of his prestige perks do stuff with the Halo which I think is a huge missed opportunity. Like even increasing its arc by 60 degrees would be a good yet not game-breaking perk maybe make it come at the cost of uptime if it even needs a downside,

Literally all he needs for ammo economy is a version of what Tactical has base for periodic ammo on majoris kill. (seriously it is SO DUMB that the two ranged specialists don't have a reliable source of ammo. Now sniper has one why didn't Heavy at least get the same perk? Make it make sense!) Tacticals running that perk NEVER have ammo problems if they are as conservative with their shots as the other classes that lack the perk. Heck I run the smg carbine and unload half a mag into just about every majoris I come across in melee between parries and I basically only run out of ammo if a terminus shows up.

​

lagasaurusRex wrote:

I've had issues with the heavy meltgun since launch, in that the ammo refund in the weapon upgrade tree simply did not work. It made it barely useable and not fun on anything above normal difficulty. I think the issue was a rounding error- so why not make one prestige that adds an additional amount to all ammo refunds, or triggers them all at once when any are triggered, making pure ammo build feel as rewarding as pure performance? your idea for restore x amount of non-mag fed weapons would make the gl good at sustained cc too!

Oh yeah the "1 ammo on majoris kill" that actually requires you to kill a majoris with the weapon, not just like with the weapon out so it is actually not a recovery perk at all and only recovers ammo if you also kill 5 enemies with one shot with being a majoris that way the class perk gives you one ammo back and the weapon perks gives you 1 ammo. Oh but it also doesn't give one per majoris killed with it, no, it is one ammo per shot per kill. I shot and killed three with one balst and got... one ammo back. At least the majoris execute for one ammo they added works so you can sort of claw ammo back that way.

​

Cecil_55 wrote:

If they are perfectly okay giving sniper esentially infinate ammo with their new prestige perk then i dont think heavy having a less situational way to regain ammo is a bad thing. If anything he needs it the most. As you mentioned, other classes have melee options when they run out of ammo. Heavy can stomp sure but it doesn't do much damage and even with the melee dmg increase perk I can't see melee heavy being a suddenly viable thing beyond substantial at best.

I think that's my biggest gripe. If ammo regen was like this across the board then I wouldn't mind. But seeing how classes with options other than range get substantially better ammo regen options is so frustrating

His perk that gives him ammo back in his class tree requires his primary to be in the red and then it only gives back 30% on a cooldown AND requires 10 kills quickly to activate. It should just be a running tally of get 10% ammo back every 10 kills with no cooldown. Or just not require the weapon to be in the red to function. OR and hear me the fuck out, you make it give back 20% on majoris kill every 30 fucking seconds like Tactical has. Oh sorry a blinding rage overtook me there for a second as I thought about how stupid it is that the ONLY CLASS THAT LACKS A FUCKNGING MELEE WEAPON HAS NO REAL AMMO REGEN. Oh many sorry it happened again.

You know what? Fuck it. Meme it up, Saber, buff Heavy to deal the same melee damage as a balanced mastercrafted thunder hammer. If you want me swinging my primary weapon like it is a hammer, and stomping around like MC Hammer, (and you clearly do because just look at his weapon and class perks that directly mention melee and now prestige perks that buff melee)  then you may as well make it hit like one. 

​

Shining_Darkness wrote:

​

Liiff wrote:

This is just insulting at this point, ignoring player feedback is one thing, but acknowledging the problem of melee focused perks and then just giving us different melee focused perks is as good as calling us a bunch of morons, as though we just wouldn't notice. Saber, the issue wasn't the type of melee perks given to the class, the issue was the focus of the perks themselves. Say it with me:

We
Want

Class

Identity
ENHANCING (ranged focused, give us ammo, ranged damage, ranged accuracy, ammo regen)

Perks

We do not want bigger baby stomps and larger parry windows, I like the short window, it gives me something to get better at and it gives me an excuse to shoot my gun more, since the class is, you know, better at doing that. Struggling for ammo is not engaging gameplay for the class that is built around shooting, it would be like adding a stamina bar for melee classes, so they have to stop swinging while in the middle of killing a pack, it just isn't fun. So give me mechanics that help me generate more rocket propelled fun capsules in a way that doesn't punish the playstyle of the class.

The only half decent perk that you gave us is a perk that gives us primary ammo back for *checks notes* killing an extremis enemy in melee. Not only is that rare, it also represents the situation that Heavies avoid. Will it happen? Sure, but don't encourage it, let us play the game to have fun the way we want to play it, stop fighting us. Fighting the tide of fun in a game established by players is like running a restaurant whose premise is to serve food to its customers that they do not like, it is just bad business.

To be fair ONE prestige perk dedicated to melee is perfectly fine, I mean there are at least 6 other options and you only get 4 picks so if one or two perks out of 6-7 are in a slightly different direction than the core class I think that is healthy for variety. But yeah, too many of the Heavy prestige perks have melee-centric mechanics. The AoE on stomp increase I think does actually fit him very well, you stomp to get swarms off you, bigger stomp means they don't get as close/get pushed farther away. He certainly does not need bigger parry windows I rarely parry in the first place. Normally I just dodge and shoot. Also like none of his prestige perks do stuff with the Halo which I think is a huge missed opportunity. Like even increasing its arc by 60 degrees would be a good yet not game-breaking perk maybe make it come at the cost of uptime if it even needs a downside,

Literally all he needs for ammo economy is a version of what Tactical has base for periodic ammo on majoris kill. (seriously it is SO DUMB that the two ranged specialists don't have a reliable source of ammo. Now sniper has one why didn't Heavy at least get the same perk? Make it make sense!) Tacticals running that perk NEVER have ammo problems if they are as conservative with their shots as the other classes that lack the perk. Heck I run the smg carbine and unload half a mag into just about every majoris I come across in melee between parries and I basically only run out of ammo if a terminus shows up.

Honestly Shining_Darkness, my biggest bone of contention with the Heavy having any melee perks is that I don't have faith in Saber to hit 4 out of 6 shots in giving us fun/useful class identity enhancing perks given their track record. My thought is if they were to design all 7 perks to be about his ranged fighting style, the odds would be better that we end up with at least 4 of them in a state worth grinding for. Also, when they mess with the balance and inevitably nerf more fun out of the game we might even have a few extra good options to switch to.

​

Liiff wrote:

​

Shining_Darkness wrote:

​

Liiff wrote:

This is just insulting at this point, ignoring player feedback is one thing, but acknowledging the problem of melee focused perks and then just giving us different melee focused perks is as good as calling us a bunch of morons, as though we just wouldn't notice. Saber, the issue wasn't the type of melee perks given to the class, the issue was the focus of the perks themselves. Say it with me:

We
Want

Class

Identity
ENHANCING (ranged focused, give us ammo, ranged damage, ranged accuracy, ammo regen)

Perks

We do not want bigger baby stomps and larger parry windows, I like the short window, it gives me something to get better at and it gives me an excuse to shoot my gun more, since the class is, you know, better at doing that. Struggling for ammo is not engaging gameplay for the class that is built around shooting, it would be like adding a stamina bar for melee classes, so they have to stop swinging while in the middle of killing a pack, it just isn't fun. So give me mechanics that help me generate more rocket propelled fun capsules in a way that doesn't punish the playstyle of the class.

The only half decent perk that you gave us is a perk that gives us primary ammo back for *checks notes* killing an extremis enemy in melee. Not only is that rare, it also represents the situation that Heavies avoid. Will it happen? Sure, but don't encourage it, let us play the game to have fun the way we want to play it, stop fighting us. Fighting the tide of fun in a game established by players is like running a restaurant whose premise is to serve food to its customers that they do not like, it is just bad business.

To be fair ONE prestige perk dedicated to melee is perfectly fine, I mean there are at least 6 other options and you only get 4 picks so if one or two perks out of 6-7 are in a slightly different direction than the core class I think that is healthy for variety. But yeah, too many of the Heavy prestige perks have melee-centric mechanics. The AoE on stomp increase I think does actually fit him very well, you stomp to get swarms off you, bigger stomp means they don't get as close/get pushed farther away. He certainly does not need bigger parry windows I rarely parry in the first place. Normally I just dodge and shoot. Also like none of his prestige perks do stuff with the Halo which I think is a huge missed opportunity. Like even increasing its arc by 60 degrees would be a good yet not game-breaking perk maybe make it come at the cost of uptime if it even needs a downside,

Literally all he needs for ammo economy is a version of what Tactical has base for periodic ammo on majoris kill. (seriously it is SO DUMB that the two ranged specialists don't have a reliable source of ammo. Now sniper has one why didn't Heavy at least get the same perk? Make it make sense!) Tacticals running that perk NEVER have ammo problems if they are as conservative with their shots as the other classes that lack the perk. Heck I run the smg carbine and unload half a mag into just about every majoris I come across in melee between parries and I basically only run out of ammo if a terminus shows up.

Honestly Shining_Darkness, my biggest bone of contention with the Heavy having any melee perks is that I don't have faith in Saber to hit 4 out of 6 shots in giving us fun/useful class identity enhancing perks given their track record. My thought is if they were to design all 7 perks to be about his ranged fighting style, the odds would be better that we end up with at least 4 of them in a state worth grinding for. Also, when they mess with the balance and inevitably nerf more fun out of the game we might even have a few extra good options to switch to.

Yeah honestly I would prefer if they just altered his one melee perk in the class tree to just incorporate the melee prestige perks and get them out of the prestige system. Put all the melee Heavy perks in one perk nobody picks anyway so if people do pick it they get a really big boost to something they shouldn't be doing anyway but hey some people like whacking things with guns and heavy is the only one that lets you do that lol.

Last round of the PTS I tried picking all the melee perks and the melee perks on his primary and his melee damage output was (drumroll please) about as good as a master-crafted combat blade. I went out of my way to melee things to get a decent melee score on the damage report and managed about 4k which is about what a sniper that is mostly focused on using their primary can expect out of occasionally slapping some stuff with their relic combat blade... so not great.

I think it would be funny to have an inherent +200% melee damage boost along with the rest of the prestige melee perks when out of ammo. Any melee-based things on him should frankly just be inherent that kick-in only if he runs out of primary ammo as a sort of enrage mechanic to keep you relevant lol.

Lot of heat up in this thread. My goodness! 
I think heavy's prestige perks are in a good place. Sad to see some of the melee perks go but it's still viable with some reworks. Just miss the no stagger perk. So with that he has 2 out of 7 melee perks now so I'm not sure why there's so much heat on this still. We finally got a perk for ammo economy and its absolutely great as is. Matter of fact I'm not sure if its a bug or intended but currently zoan kills with weapon give ammo back too without having to melee or execute. Ammo economy wasn't a huge deal before but this is a nice QoL perk now and i can tweak my builds a little more for it. Besides melee stomps help with the class perk auxiliary ammunition more so I'm still a fan of melee to help get more ammo back when empty in a clutch moment. 

I play all classes. I do have a love spot for heavy though. You play long enough and you realize Melee is everyone's primary dps. Ranged 2nd. lol Heavy was the only exception and always weak in this but the melee damage increases helped it and puts it in a more useable spot when you know how to use it correctly. Its a nice addition to his kit. 

In defense of others, the community want heavy to have fencing parry so that's why heavy has duelist now. I don't personally care for it as i was fine with it as is. 2 perks focus on gun strikes and your tilted about that and count them as melee perks? really? That leans into some QoL on sustain. It has nothing to do with melee. Your just putting it on there for proximity?

This forum is all about everyone sharing their opinion. Besides as they stated they get a lot of feedback. Overwhelmingly so. It will take time for some fine tuning and what we will see come and go. I'm sure they'll take in account how many people actually use which perks vs others and go from there when it goes live. 

Only perk I wish they kept was the immune to heavy hits and knock backs for charged stomp (although I'd rather just some window so i can have it during normal stomps). That just made them stomps nail it every time. I can make up for the lost in the other melee damage perk in weapons. 

This is my issue though, you play all classes, I play the Heavy and some Sniper. I only like the ranged aspects of the game. So I have effectively 1.5 (as you said, the Heavy is the only exception to your melee damage rule) classes to play the game whereas you have 6, why do you insist on pulling the Heavy more in line with how the other classes play?

Allowing the heavy to be weak in melee allows Saber to balance the Heavy in a way that the class can be stronger in ranged combat, so giving him an improved melee kit necessitates that the class loses out on ranged combat potential.

These perks don't need fine tuning, they are designed with the wrong philosophy in mind, they need an overhaul and re-evaluation from the standpoint of the Heavy's identity as a ranged damage powerhouse (once again, the only one).

So please, if you are not a player that specifically enjoys the ranged playstyle that is unique to the Heavy, stay out of the comments section on forum posts around it, you have other classes to play and enjoy, I do not.

Liiff wrote:

This is my issue though, you play all classes, I play the Heavy and some Sniper. I only like the ranged aspects of the game. So I have effectively 1.5 (as you said, the Heavy is the only exception to your melee damage rule) classes to play the game whereas you have 6, why do you insist on pulling the Heavy more in line with how the other classes play?

Allowing the heavy to be weak in melee allows Saber to balance the Heavy in a way that the class can be stronger in ranged combat, so giving him an improved melee kit necessitates that the class loses out on ranged combat potential.

These perks don't need fine tuning, they are designed with the wrong philosophy in mind, they need an overhaul and re-evaluation from the standpoint of the Heavy's identity as a ranged damage powerhouse (once again, the only one).

So please, if you are not a player that specifically enjoys the ranged playstyle that is unique to the Heavy, stay out of the comments section on forum posts around it, you have other classes to play and enjoy, I do not.

You're insistent push to kick people out of the forum and silence other's opinions because it's not your view is very immature and disrespectful. Lucky for you, some people don't put up with it. I'll continue to voice mine! As should all others!!

Melee for Straben is part of his kit weather you agree or not. Its opinion but the mechanic is there. When Straben gets surrounded, what do you think on of his options are? A classic stomp!!! It feeds into the playstyle of the game overall and I for one will continue to encourage both his melee and ranged aspects. They have already said what their idea is about prestige perks are. Great QoL. I would even argue they assist builds more in playing the game on the hardest difficulties more than anything because honestly they are not needed on anything lower. 

Also you can't tell me melee is not going to be part of their kit when he has the Multi-Melta rifle. Several of his perks are centered around him being in melee proximity. Now that the community has voiced heavy having the HBR which he now has (I think this cosmetic cosplay idea would of been best left to a new class but oh well) he needs to have a stronger melee option since he won't be granted a melee weapon. I've seen people doing 27k in both ranged and melee before the PTS update. It was a build. But with the new changes its lacking a little bit with what was desired but some of that can be gained elsewhere. 

If anything I'd like to see duelist go away and bring some type of anti stagger while stomping perk come back. His balance parry defense mechanic is easy to grow accustom too. I'd rather be able to get my stomp off in a critical time and not be slapped around when the situation calls for it. 

Interesting choice in words, do you have some sort of hero complex, are you fighting the good fight? You do realize that me asking you to calm down with your half baked opinion about a class that you dabble in isn't silencing anyone, I was asking you to see a point of view that is outside of your own, which you are clearly incapable of.

Your insistence to push every class down the same playstyle path is going to push players out of the game, which is shortsighted and narrow minded. Were you that kid in the sandbox that needed to have every toy for himself?

What exactly is your point about the multi-melta and melee proximity? It staggers and nukes everything in front of it, there isn't much melee necessary in that interaction, enemies tend to just die, yes they die in melee range, but not typically to melee damage from the Heavy.

The HBR is its own mess that I wish they would remove from the class instead of wasting hours of development time balancing around it.

As for what I do when I get surrounded? I make space by shooting, dodge rolling away and dropping grenades. Charging a stomp in that mess just tanks damage and disrupts the flow of dispatching enemies, I am glad you like using melee in this scenario, that is why I mentioned that there are 5 other classes that lean into this playstyle better.

I understand that their design philosophy led them to creating these perks, otherwise they wouldn't have made them? What I said is that they have the wrong design philosophy in mind to encourage class identity and to give players who do not want a mass of homogenized classes that all play the same a place to play the game. Your argument is like me sitting in forums advocating for the Assault class to tone down its melee capabilities in favor of getting better ranged damage output, maybe even getting an actual primary weapon and being balanced around that.

I’m all for both and I understand the gripes. I’m just trying to point out that there are different circles that want different things. It’s an opinion forum for ideas and feedback but I would continue for all to push for specifics when possible as that would help the devs know what ideas to go towards. Ideally we both get the best of both worlds and builds diversity with play style. 

Like this thread to include major kills to regen the ammo. Or just make it on extreméis kills and forgo the melee aspect of the perk. Although it’s currently bugged I think right now and it does work on ranged kills of extremis to get ammo back. 

I just don’t tolerate being attacked because I’m in another group. I’ve stated I love heavy and I probably play him the most out of all 6 with tactical a close 2nd.