I absolutely agree.

Until they fix this mechanic or switch up the scale I don't see how the Horde mode will be any fun - just as the Chaos missions are still a big chore to slug through.

Your suggestion of healing on Executes is great but that doesn't solve the issue maffaxxx is mentioning of four Thunder hammer strikes to kill the smallest enemy in the game. It's not fun...
As I have stated in other posts, my solution would be to change the health of units so you actually one-shot the smallest, and not empty 3 Bolter magazines into a Majoris but perhaps only 1 and then introduce bigger enemies to keep the missions challenging. Ie exactly like in Darktide or Helldivers 2 were it works perfectly imo.

Agree with all of the above.

The starvation of ammo and health, in any game, never feels fun or "challenging". It's just frustrating.

Shameless link: Health and Armour ideas by Azzakye

I would also like to say that being forced to parry is also not fun as I want to power through and just attack sometimes but getting grabbed by a minoris is a pain especially when I am mid swing on a charged/heavy attack.

First and foremost, I agree.

To add onto the "I feel like a weak baby" feeling the game gives us: the Bulwark's shield is... well mostly useless. It blocks basic ranged attacks, minoris melee attacks, and can block a single sniper shot but will be staggered and left open if you do... and that is it, that is the extent of what it can block. It can't even really block blue attacks because that will stagger you and leave you open to a hit. The class's signature bit of wargear is mostly useless. Let the shield block EVERYTHING, give us an energy bar to indicate how much power the storm shield has left and when that is depleted then make it unable to block all but the basic ranged attacks until it recharges after a short delay. It is a storm shield, they can block anti-matter shots as long as they have power flowing through them to produce the energy shielding. The energy shield the Iron Halo projects is the exact same energy field a Storm Shield projects over its surface.

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Shining_Darkness wrote:

First and foremost, I agree.

To add onto the "I feel like a weak baby" feeling the game gives us: the Bulwark's shield is... well mostly useless. It blocks basic ranged attacks, minoris melee attacks, and can block a single sniper shot but will be staggered and left open if you do... and that is it, that is the extent of what it can block. It can't even really block blue attacks because that will stagger you and leave you open to a hit. The class's signature bit of wargear is mostly useless. Let the shield block EVERYTHING, give us an energy bar to indicate how much power the storm shield has left and when that is depleted then make it unable to block all but the basic ranged attacks until it recharges after a short delay. It is a storm shield, they can block anti-matter shots as long as they have power flowing through them to produce the energy shielding. The energy shield the Iron Halo projects is the exact same energy field a Storm Shield projects over its surface.

Completely disagree, the shield prevents damage from all minoris and you can constantly shield bash for quick gunstrikes for armour in hordes if you need it. It blocks almost all range spam including the devourer Majoris (allowing you to close the gap) which can quickly strip your armour and health. It blocks the blue attacks (which should be parried not blocked) and the sniper shots which wreck other classes (which should be dodged not blocked). Seriously play to its strengths, not your opinion of what it should do. 

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YaboitheCadian wrote:
In My previous thread I discussed issues with Space Marine 2 and how the player was made to feel weak and anemic with it's nonreactive gunplay:Bullet SpongesI touched on  tangentially another pressing issue with Space Marine 2, that is the lack of health and how it affects the overall powerfantasy of being a Space Marine.
Space marine 2's pve is set up much akin to other Horde shooters such as the Tide series. In those games you feel like a worthy indestructible killing machine mowing down waves of rats/ cultists/ cultists rats. They are expertly crafted to allow the player to know their weapons have impact, they have the ability to affect the flow of combat, all the while maintaining a high level of engagement and difficulty. These games have a limited health system they don't regenerate health outside of health items and some certain skills. Yet in these games you often never feel pathetic, or health starved. While you may wish to flee from an unfavorable fight, you very much want to keep the fight up in order to push forward.
In Space marine 2 the Devs stated they wanted a push forward powerfantasy style combat. However in the actual game it is more often than not that players will see a  horde of enemies and seek to avoid them, or when there are grim moments they would rather spam roll untill they are safe or another player respawns. This is the exact opposite of the devs vision. This occurred simply by a failure of its health design.Unlike Space Marine Original, players do not regenerate health while performing executions. However there are health items scattered through missions. What is regained is a temporary health system called "armor of contempt" and only this will regenerate. While it is possible to mitigate the loss of health by keeping the fight going, it is more often that a player's health will dwindle rapidly as the fight progresses. Since only AC is regenerated this means that a player will be health starved most of a match. This leads to passive and defensive decision making. Even if a player goes all in to fight a horde and desperately try to regenerate their AC until the fight has ended, there is a high chance they will still get a health hit in and die.Even a simple gaunt is enough to cause a player to considere a safe choice. This doesn't make you feel powerful, it makes you feel pathetic.

So the player with low health's only recourse to dealing with their low health is to thrust into a situation that only serves to punish them for having low health in the hopes they will survive. This isn't power fantasy, this is folly. This encourages the player to stay back, think and be methodical, not to push forward.
DOOM 2016 tried to introduce a system of combat where you pushed forward to control the fight, but the game saw most players back step and retreat untill all enemies were dead. there was no push forward. It wasn't until doom eternal where they realized they needed to incentivize players to get into the thick of it and showered them with rewards. Players went from seeing a group of enemies as a thing to outlast, into a thing they will regain health/ammo/ armor from and instead the player wanted to rush in and cause as much damage as possible.
Space Marine 2 has no such incentive. Your health vanishes if you take a single hit, and the only way to recover it is to hope you can swing back to mitigate the loss, or find a health item later in the mission.
To get the players to want to throw themselves into the enemy there must be sufficient reason and reward to do so. Instead of recovering AC only executions should restore health. Health restored should be based on the power of the enemy ( example minoris 10% per Majoris 25% per Terminus 100% per) Armor of Contempt should be a constantly refreshing value that can be overwhelmed. While 1 gaunt might not attack fast enough, hard enough to break your AC, 12 might, and a warrior definitely can. this will give players a sense of power, since one lowly unit poses no threat to you, you will feel mighty. As your health can recover by throwing yourself at enemies. Players will pick out specific enemies due to their health needs, they will also change their battle tactics depending on what they immediately need.This changes the horde from a thing to avoid when in danger, to a enemy to wrangle when in danger. Players will go from health starved and passive, to neigh immortal so long as they remain aggressive. Passivity will lead to lower health pools. Thus passive running and roll spamming will not yield as much reward as sticking the fight out. This means players will want to push forward. This will also allow them to feel powerful. So when a large hit chunck their health they will no longer flee, but want to get revenge and kill that warrior who dared to strike them.
As it stands currently. The players feel weak and anemic. their weapons make little to not impact on their enemy, and their enemy can remove and entire healthbar in a single hit. there is nothing the player can do about this. they feel powerless and pathetic.

The game design needs non of these changes. The power fantasy is perfectly fine if you play to classes, perks, weapons strengths. If you make a lot of mistakes you get punished. A huge amount of people live the game as it is and it’s extremely successful without needing drastic redesign.

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Martinicus wrote:

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The game design needs non of these changes. The power fantasy is perfectly fine if you play to classes, perks, weapons strengths. If you make a lot of mistakes you get punished. A huge amount of people live the game as it is and it’s extremely successful without needing drastic redesign.

I can eat soup with a fork. That doesn't mean my utensil was correctly designed.

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Martinicus wrote:

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Shining_Darkness wrote:

First and foremost, I agree.

To add onto the "I feel like a weak baby" feeling the game gives us: the Bulwark's shield is... well mostly useless. It blocks basic ranged attacks, minoris melee attacks, and can block a single sniper shot but will be staggered and left open if you do... and that is it, that is the extent of what it can block. It can't even really block blue attacks because that will stagger you and leave you open to a hit. The class's signature bit of wargear is mostly useless. Let the shield block EVERYTHING, give us an energy bar to indicate how much power the storm shield has left and when that is depleted then make it unable to block all but the basic ranged attacks until it recharges after a short delay. It is a storm shield, they can block anti-matter shots as long as they have power flowing through them to produce the energy shielding. The energy shield the Iron Halo projects is the exact same energy field a Storm Shield projects over its surface.

Completely disagree, the shield prevents damage from all minoris and you can constantly shield bash for quick gunstrikes for armour in hordes if you need it. It blocks almost all range spam including the devourer Majoris (allowing you to close the gap) which can quickly strip your armour and health. It blocks the blue attacks (which should be parried not blocked) and the sniper shots which wreck other classes (which should be dodged not blocked). Seriously play to its strengths, not your opinion of what it should do. 

I do honestly agree with Shining_Darkness to be fair. This links to the general design mistake that weapons scale with the enemies, impacting and sometimes destroying whatever mental image you have of a certain weapon. How many slashes does a Space Marine need to kill a gaunt with a Power Sword? How many exploding bolt rounds in any part of the gaunt's body? How can a gaunt possibly survive from being hit by a Thunder Hammer coming in full acceleration from the sky up above? Why can't a Storm Shield sustain anything but the most basic of direct hits?

Armor levelling is a chance for Sabre to introduce different level of defense the more you collect better and better pieces. Purity seals, honors, armor quality: they should all contribute to raise your survivability out there, together with your progress as an Astartes. I do hope that in the future a tyrannid warrior will have a fixed amount of strength and resilience, and that the difficulty will be brought in by different, tougher enemies. A gaunt is a gaunt is a gaunt. Id rather not have access to thunder hammers before level 20 if getting them sooner means having to swipe three times at a gaunt in order to kill it.

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YaboitheCadian wrote:

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Martinicus wrote:

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The game design needs non of these changes. The power fantasy is perfectly fine if you play to classes, perks, weapons strengths. If you make a lot of mistakes you get punished. A huge amount of people live the game as it is and it’s extremely successful without needing drastic redesign.

I can eat soup with a fork. That doesn't mean my utensil was correctly designed.

Similarly just because someone finds it hard to eat soup with a spoon doesn’t mean everyone should be forced to use a ladle.

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Martinicus wrote:

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Shining_Darkness wrote:

First and foremost, I agree.

To add onto the "I feel like a weak baby" feeling the game gives us: the Bulwark's shield is... well mostly useless. It blocks basic ranged attacks, minoris melee attacks, and can block a single sniper shot but will be staggered and left open if you do... and that is it, that is the extent of what it can block. It can't even really block blue attacks because that will stagger you and leave you open to a hit. The class's signature bit of wargear is mostly useless. Let the shield block EVERYTHING, give us an energy bar to indicate how much power the storm shield has left and when that is depleted then make it unable to block all but the basic ranged attacks until it recharges after a short delay. It is a storm shield, they can block anti-matter shots as long as they have power flowing through them to produce the energy shielding. The energy shield the Iron Halo projects is the exact same energy field a Storm Shield projects over its surface.

Completely disagree, the shield prevents damage from all minoris and you can constantly shield bash for quick gunstrikes for armour in hordes if you need it. It blocks almost all range spam including the devourer Majoris (allowing you to close the gap) which can quickly strip your armour and health. It blocks the blue attacks (which should be parried not blocked) and the sniper shots which wreck other classes (which should be dodged not blocked). Seriously play to its strengths, not your opinion of what it should do. 

If a shield's main use is bashing, it is not a shield, it is a flat club. Just because "it works" doesn't mean it also doesn't work the way it should. I know how to use it, don't just assume I don't. It should be able to block all ranged attack BUT have a power meter where it loses that ability until recharging.

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Shining_Darkness wrote:
If a shield's main use is bashing, it is not a shield, it is a flat club. Just because "it works" doesn't mean it also doesn't work the way it should. I know how to use it, don't just assume I don't. It should be able to block all ranged attack BUT have a power meter where it loses that ability until recharging.

When I was new I assumed that the Iron Halo was given to the Heavy because the shield acted like a personal IH. Man was I wrong when if first charged headlong into devourer and venom cannon warrior firing line.

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Shining_Darkness wrote:

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Martinicus wrote:

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Shining_Darkness wrote:

First and foremost, I agree.

To add onto the "I feel like a weak baby" feeling the game gives us: the Bulwark's shield is... well mostly useless. It blocks basic ranged attacks, minoris melee attacks, and can block a single sniper shot but will be staggered and left open if you do... and that is it, that is the extent of what it can block. It can't even really block blue attacks because that will stagger you and leave you open to a hit. The class's signature bit of wargear is mostly useless. Let the shield block EVERYTHING, give us an energy bar to indicate how much power the storm shield has left and when that is depleted then make it unable to block all but the basic ranged attacks until it recharges after a short delay. It is a storm shield, they can block anti-matter shots as long as they have power flowing through them to produce the energy shielding. The energy shield the Iron Halo projects is the exact same energy field a Storm Shield projects over its surface.

Completely disagree, the shield prevents damage from all minoris and you can constantly shield bash for quick gunstrikes for armour in hordes if you need it. It blocks almost all range spam including the devourer Majoris (allowing you to close the gap) which can quickly strip your armour and health. It blocks the blue attacks (which should be parried not blocked) and the sniper shots which wreck other classes (which should be dodged not blocked). Seriously play to its strengths, not your opinion of what it should do. 

If a shield's main use is bashing, it is not a shield, it is a flat club. Just because "it works" doesn't mean it also doesn't work the way it should. I know how to use it, don't just assume I don't. It should be able to block all ranged attack BUT have a power meter where it loses that ability until recharging.

Who said it’s main use is bashing so please don’t put words in my mouth. It blocks virtually all attack’s except, er, unblockable ones. Granted you can get staggering, although most other classes heath would be mostly white! It creates the opportunity to get armour while blocking minoris, something no other class has. Also, you’re the one, assuming it should work a certain way, different to how the devs designed it and the vast majority of the community are happy with.

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Martinicus wrote:

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Shining_Darkness wrote:

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Martinicus wrote:

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Shining_Darkness wrote:

First and foremost, I agree.

To add onto the "I feel like a weak baby" feeling the game gives us: the Bulwark's shield is... well mostly useless. It blocks basic ranged attacks, minoris melee attacks, and can block a single sniper shot but will be staggered and left open if you do... and that is it, that is the extent of what it can block. It can't even really block blue attacks because that will stagger you and leave you open to a hit. The class's signature bit of wargear is mostly useless. Let the shield block EVERYTHING, give us an energy bar to indicate how much power the storm shield has left and when that is depleted then make it unable to block all but the basic ranged attacks until it recharges after a short delay. It is a storm shield, they can block anti-matter shots as long as they have power flowing through them to produce the energy shielding. The energy shield the Iron Halo projects is the exact same energy field a Storm Shield projects over its surface.

Completely disagree, the shield prevents damage from all minoris and you can constantly shield bash for quick gunstrikes for armour in hordes if you need it. It blocks almost all range spam including the devourer Majoris (allowing you to close the gap) which can quickly strip your armour and health. It blocks the blue attacks (which should be parried not blocked) and the sniper shots which wreck other classes (which should be dodged not blocked). Seriously play to its strengths, not your opinion of what it should do. 

If a shield's main use is bashing, it is not a shield, it is a flat club. Just because "it works" doesn't mean it also doesn't work the way it should. I know how to use it, don't just assume I don't. It should be able to block all ranged attack BUT have a power meter where it loses that ability until recharging.

Who said it’s main use is bashing so please don’t put words in my mouth. It blocks virtually all attack’s except, er, unblockable ones. Granted you can get staggering, although most other classes heath would be mostly white! It creates the opportunity to get armour while blocking minoris, something no other class has. Also, you’re the one, assuming it should work a certain way, different to how the devs designed it and the vast majority of the community are happy with.

NOPE not continuing this discussion with you. You are one of THOSE people. Good day.

Shining_Darkness wrote:

First and foremost, I agree.

To add onto the "I feel like a weak baby" feeling the game gives us: the Bulwark's shield is... well mostly useless. It blocks basic ranged attacks, minoris melee attacks, and can block a single sniper shot but will be staggered and left open if you do... and that is it, that is the extent of what it can block. It can't even really block blue attacks because that will stagger you and leave you open to a hit. The class's signature bit of wargear is mostly useless.

I had been having much the same feeling, only it turned out that the use of the Bulwark’s shield is not unlike the Vanguard’s stomp, as it requires a particular style of button or key sequencing to make it work effectively ~ in the sense of a block being a block by way of ‘holding’ the attack button for however long, and a parry being a parry by way of a quick press or tap of the attack button ~ at almost the very beginning of Majoris level enemies blue attack animation sequences.

This is all demonstrated and explained in the following Youtube videos by Tony Coast:

PART 1 - HOW TO PARRY WITH BULWARK (WARHAMMER 40K SPACE MARINES 2)

PART 2 - HOW TO PARRY WITH BULWARK (WARHAMMER 40K SPACE MARINES 2)

PART 3 - HOW TO PARRY WITH BULWARK: MANAGING THE HORDE (FULL OPERATION WALKTRHOUGH) *RUTHLESS*

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maffaxxx wrote:
You might grow in health as you level up, on the other hand, and/or get access to slightly better armor as you accrue honors and purity seals. 

One would of thought that should have been the case, especially given that the colour classification for the armour corresponds directly with the weapons ~ so one day maybe that might be patched or modded in as it quite probably was as such intended to be.

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bewildered_oneO1 wrote:

Shining_Darkness wrote:

First and foremost, I agree.

To add onto the "I feel like a weak baby" feeling the game gives us: the Bulwark's shield is... well mostly useless. It blocks basic ranged attacks, minoris melee attacks, and can block a single sniper shot but will be staggered and left open if you do... and that is it, that is the extent of what it can block. It can't even really block blue attacks because that will stagger you and leave you open to a hit. The class's signature bit of wargear is mostly useless.

I had been having much the same feeling, only it turned out that the use of the Bulwark’s shield is not unlike the Vanguard’s stomp, as it requires a particular style of button or key sequencing to make it work effectively ~ in the sense of a block being a block by way of ‘holding’ the attack button for however long, and a parry being a parry by way of a quick press or tap of the attack button ~ at almost the very beginning of Majoris level enemies blue attack animation sequences.

This is all demonstrated and explained in the following Youtube videos by Tony Coast:

PART 1 - HOW TO PARRY WITH BULWARK (WARHAMMER 40K SPACE MARINES 2)

PART 2 - HOW TO PARRY WITH BULWARK (WARHAMMER 40K SPACE MARINES 2)

PART 3 - HOW TO PARRY WITH BULWARK: MANAGING THE HORDE (FULL OPERATION WALKTRHOUGH) *RUTHLESS*

Not what I'm talking about. I have zero issues parrying on bulwark, or managing hordes, or whatever. On controller I guess this is a problem but my keyboard is very responsive to tap vs press. I am talking about how the shield does not feel like a worthy replacement for a primary weapon. It is a mostly defensive item that can't block parryable melee well and can't block sniper shots well (despite them technically not being orange attacks since they never flash a warning) and it of course can't block "unblockable" attacks. (which I think should be "unparryable" not "unblockable" for that very reason) This makes the storm shield feel weaker that it probably should be and adds to the "my marine does not feel strong" that the OP talks about.

The shield doesn't do enough for sacrificing a primary weapon for it. At the very least shield-bash should be able to parry, that should be how it deals with "unblockables," shield-bashing into unblockable attacks. Because the shield bash visually increases the energy output of the shield so that should give you a small window to just bat-away an attack. Shield bash currently makes you vulnerable to attack because it stops blocking in that animation so it should be a risk/reward option. Dodge the attack, or risk bashing the attack which would maybe be generate a gunstrike on the attacker or have some other effect, maybe even just generate AC. Missing a shield bash "parry" (let's call it deflect) therefore means you probably eat the attack full-force. You then swap one of his iconic perks (let's be honest, the last one is underwhelming for being a level 25 unlock... and everyone knows that "heavy hits" thing is useless because it doesn't stop uncontrollability from blue attacks) to make this deflect now reflect attacks or if that is too much makes shield bash do significant damage for wither an amount of time or the next hit. 

I should clarify I don't want to just hold a button and be invincible, I want more interaction. Bulwark has to dodge unblockable attacks like everyone else (except heavy who gets Iron Halo that blocks all ranged attacks other than the helldrake and nid pulse waves but even he has to dodge unblockable melee)

I will say this is veering into off-topic though so that is all I will say on the Bulwark specifically.

everything in your post can be remedied by gitting gud